Leadership in A Time of Ambiguity-The State of The United Methodist Church with Bishop Julius Trimble

Brad Miller: 00:00:00

Back on be encouraged with Bishop Julius

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Trumbull, where we look at issues facing the United

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Methodist Church. And of course, it's an ongoing conversation

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about the state of the church. And perhaps as we are within a

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year of the General Conference happening and 22, hopefully

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it'll happen. Maybe it's time to kind of get an assessment of

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where we stand at Bishop. I know you've been meeting with the

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Council of Bishops and the time period that we're speaking,

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where do we stand right now, we've been in this kind of this

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time of stagnancy for quite a while now and the pressure is

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building, I can feel it, give me your state of church, right,

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:00:35

where there's good news. And the good

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news is that the church is alive and well, facing challenges, in

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spite of the fact that we have been impacted globally, by a

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first ever, pandemic, that is resulted in millions of lives

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being lost, we just recently crossed 750,000, lives laws in

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the United States, Lord have mercy. So the church is still

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alive and bred, as you know, many of our churches have not

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been able to meet in person for worship. And yet, when we

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adapted that now, many most of us are back in worship in person

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worship, somewhere in mask and still have certain protocols.

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But we've actually many places across the globe increased our

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reach because of online platforms, to people that had

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previously not been attending church, and maybe some of those

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persons never will enter into our church buildings. So the

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good news is that churches alive the gospel is still being

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proclaimed. People are still answering the call the ministry,

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and addressing the Matthew 25 mandate to feed the hungry,

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clothe the naked and visit those who are in prison. The tough

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news is that we're still in this long protracted state, in the

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United Methodist Church, with division around human sexuality,

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the freedom of pastors to perform same gender weddings,

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and persons being accepted for a nation who may be part of the

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LGBTQ community. So that that has not been resolved. But the

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state of the church, I would say is, we are still here, we still

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have our main thing, which is to make disciples of Jesus Christ,

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for the transformation of the world. But as I said, just

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recently, our main thing is not our only thing. There are many

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other things that that are facing us as well.

Brad Miller: 00:02:32

One of the things I noticed an article came out of

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the United Methodist news. The headline was Bishop urge to

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embrace a more loving way. And it quotes Bishop Cynthia Fierro

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Harvey, among others who've spoken to this issue. I like for

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you to speak to it as well, when we have an article that says

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heirs to embrace a more loving way that cutting applies that

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maybe not everyone's been so loving. What do you think that

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means, however, things go as we have some division, hopefully we

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killed have diversion. You know, what, what can we do to be more

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loving, and somehow navigate this process in a way that we

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can have differences but not be destructive? I

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:03:21

think that I think the gospel is

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mandating us to demonstrate a more loving way. We have, I

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think exercise over the recent years. Way too much vitriol, not

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just on social media, but even in places where we had

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opportunity to have what we thought would be conversations,

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turn into heated debates. I think a more loving way is for

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me to say, you and I may not agree bread, but you are a child

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of God and I have no other option other than to treat you

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and to listen, treat you as a child of God. Listen to your

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story. And listen for how God might speak to me through your

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story. As opposed to listening, just waiting to debate you about

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how you are wrong about the Bible. Or you wrong about your

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position. Or and I am so right. We we have I think fallen in

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love with being right more than we have fallen in love with

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Jesus. And so I think the more we fall in love with Jesus we

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the more apt we are to be loving demonstrate a more loving way of

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being in community

Brad Miller: 00:04:37

that is so so profound supposedly you're we're

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all walking along the same path together and sometimes we may

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not feel that we are but we are so I'd be really interested in

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maybe this would be good for our listeners here United Methodist

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people podcast to hear but how did things go in the among the

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conversations among the bishops around all this when you get

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together the county bishops what are some of the conversations

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like about, for instance? How's it going in my annual conference

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compared to your annual conference or these difficult

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churches are the difficult circumstances? Are people

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getting along in the Council of Bishops? Or is there a clashes

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going on there? What can we what is the council bishops doing to

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be helpful to into local churches? Could I really think a

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lot of local churches are looking for some sort of

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guidance from someplace about how to navigate all this? And

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I'm just going to start with the Council of Bishops because

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that's where you're at. And you've been meeting with

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:05:32

I think the Council of Bishops we're,

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we're certainly demonstrate an abundance of Christian

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politeness. But there are times which we recognize that we don't

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all we don't all agree in the Council of Bishops when you have

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over 100 bishops from across the globe, not just the United

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States, but from many, many other places as well. We cover

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the spectrum of what people would consider sitter the

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theological extremes and as well as centrist and progressives and

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liberals and traditionalists. But all of us demonstrate an

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attempt to lead in such a way as we are faithful to our not only

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our ordination vows as elders, but our consecration vows as

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bishops. What do I mean by that? Promoting the unity of the

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church means that I'm a bishop in a state where I have people

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who are all across the theological spectrum. And for me

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to lead and to demonstrate leadership, I have to do it in

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such a way. And I think this is what we share in the Council of

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Bishops. How do we lead amidst ambiguity? How do we lead when

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there is a need for lament so much has been so much how do we

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lead when there's exhaustion? Bread? Do you know what I mean?

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When there's people are exhausted? Absolutely. Because

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of life because, and pastors are, so this is part of what we

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talk about. And this is one of the challenge.

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The term I hear a lot about from other pastors and

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even myself is I'm just so weary. I'm just so weary,

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:07:03

weary. And yes, that is, that is that

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is that is a real, that's a real, that's real, and bishops

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are real. And no bishops are weary. So part of part of what

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we do in the Council of Bishops is to, is to do what we do on

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this podcast, is to encourage people encourage each other and

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recognize that okay, my story may be different than your

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story. And my my bent on a particular issue, whether it's

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climate stewardship, or LGBTQ questions, may be different than

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yours, but am I demonstrating what we talked about earlier, a

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loving way of relating to those people who are claimed to be my

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sisters and brothers. in ministry, Christ prayer for the

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for our unity is right in the Gospel of John the 17th chapter.

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He wasn't unclear about that bread, you know, my pray for

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pray for you, the disciples, I pray for the world. And I pray

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for those who will, who will receive the gospel. So Christ

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prayer for unity was for us today. And obviously, this made

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this doesn't mean they're not changes, or they're not

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divisions, we've got multiple denominations already did exist,

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multiple ways in which people are expressed the following of

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Christ. But I think the Unity really has to do with a Wesleyan

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:08:28

Wesleyan position that we need not all think alike. In order

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:08:33

for us to live a life

Brad Miller: 00:08:34

that is profound, that's awesome. Well, let's take

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that sentiment, Bishop that you have in the Council of Bishops

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and the conversation you and I are having. And let's just take

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it into that local church boardroom where the Leadership

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Council or the administrative council or any group is meeting

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and they're having these conversations, and perhaps in

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some of those conversations, they're talking about, you know,

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how to somehow disaffiliate or anything else along that line or

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about use of land and money and all that kind of stuff. How can

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we give some guidance or leadership to that lay person

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who's leading that group particularly or that local

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pastor, to help to navigate some of this stuff when there is

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intense feelings in that local church as well, that are many

Brad Miller: 00:09:19

different sides of the spectrum? Give us some guidance for that

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local church leadership?

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:09:23

Well, I would say that churches should

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not make decisions that they've not had a chance to sit with,

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for for a period of time. Has there been a season of prayer?

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Or did we did we receive information about these are

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options and next week, we want to have a charge conference and

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have the superintendent preside over charge conference to make a

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decision? Have we asked the question? Do we really want to

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be in a church where we all agree on all things related to

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scripture or related to the way in which decisions are made or

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can we live in a church where they area's diversity of

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thought, can we live in a church where we are trusting a bishop

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and cabinet, to assign us a pastor who is suitable for our

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community and for our context. So that is one of the things

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that distinguishes United Methodism from other independent

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churches is that we count on our relationship with others. And we

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expect to be a part of a church where we don't have to all think

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alike to believe that Jesus Christ is Lord. And not only our

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personal salvation, personal Savior, but indeed our community

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savior.

Brad Miller: 00:10:47

That's awesome. I'd love the love, love your thought

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about having a season of prayer and contemplation, before you

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make a literally dramatic life changing decisions. And we

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:10:59

don't always ask the question, when we

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:11:01

make a decision, who are we leaving behind? We've, we've had

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to deal with this already. Because we've had churches, and

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we realize, even if you vote, say 70%, voted to leave or 70%

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voted to stay. When we make a decision like that, we're often

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voting to leave somebody behind sometime, they're, they're left

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behind quietly. They don't they don't raise their voice.

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Sometimes we're leaving behind persons who have grandchildren

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or children who are gay. Sometimes we're leaving to have

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persons who feel like their, their traditional views have

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been squashed. And they can't be honest. Because everybody is

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sounding like they are progressive in their

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interpretation of the scriptures. So I think we really

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should be humble in our decisions around this. And

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having said that, I think there's no reason for us to

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:11:58

count people who leave as our enemies.

Brad Miller: 00:12:01

Even these conversations that we're talking

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to divisive conversations do have implications for how

Brad Miller: 00:12:08

effective or not we are making disciples of Jesus Christ for

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the transformation of the world. Let's bring us around Bishop

Brad Miller: 00:12:14

just I always like to you started our conversation here

Brad Miller: 00:12:17

about there's good news to share. But let's talk now about

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encouraging news moving forward. And let's have a prayer about

Brad Miller: 00:12:23

the future of the church, which is going to be an ongoing

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conversation that you and I are going to have continually. But

Brad Miller: 00:12:28

give us a moment right now. What's encouraging, let's pray

Brad Miller: 00:12:31

about it.

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:12:31

I think what's encouraging right now is

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:12:33

that the message you you will hear consistently, over these

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:12:37

next coming weeks from the Council of Bishops of The United

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:12:41

Methodist Church, is a message that there's a place for

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everyone in the ongoing the current and the ongoing United

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:12:48

Methodist Church. This is not to disparage anyone, we haven't had

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:12:52

a general conference. So there hasn't been any formal

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:12:56

separation. We've had some churches who have made decisions

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:12:59

to disaffiliate. And we don't count these as our enemies. But

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:13:04

we do say that there is a place for everyone in the United

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:13:07

Methodist Church. That's a consistent message you're going

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:13:10

to hear, I think, over the weeks, from the Council of

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:13:14

Bishops, that we are a church that is confident of what God

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:13:18

has done in Christ Jesus for all of humankind. We are committed

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:13:22

to personal and social salvation. We are courageous in

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:13:26

our work to dismantle racism, tribalism, colonialism, and

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:13:31

we're not operating from a standpoint of scarcity. The

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:13:35

church bread has been so generous in supporting our local

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:13:39

churches, that tells me that we are very much committed to our

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:13:43

mission of making disciples of Jesus Christ for the

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:13:46

transformation of the world. My discipleship is tied to my

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:13:51

willingness to stick together in good times and tough times. And

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:13:56

so that's great news. And good news of the gospel. That is,

Brad Miller: 00:14:00

that is good news and encouraging word and, and

Brad Miller: 00:14:03

once you let's pray for it, let's pray about this. Do you

Brad Miller: 00:14:05

mind praying for this ongoing conversation?

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:14:09

Oh, God, we just ask that you. You pour

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:14:11

your spirit Oh God in the narrative of The United

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:14:14

Methodist Church. Let our story be your story told through us.

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:14:18

Oh, God, we're not trying to pit sister against sister or brother

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:14:22

against brother. Oh God. We're asking that you use us in this

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pivotal moment in history. They are people hungry, spiritually

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:14:31

hungry, and physically hungry. Use your church to bring food,

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:14:37

the fresh bread of life the fresh bread of hope, the fresh

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:14:41

bread of salvation in Jesus Christ. Oh God, we pray that we

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:14:44

not count anybody out. But we count all persons in bless us.

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:14:50

Oh God, not that we always know the way but you are the way and

Bishop Julius Trimble: 00:14:55

we ask you Oh God in Jesus name to lead us and guide us Amen

Brad Miller: 00:15:01

Amen our guest today on the United Methodist

Brad Miller: 00:15:03

people podcast being encouraged with Bishop Julius tremble