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Episode 59

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Published on:

10th Feb 2022

How Rev. Craig Duke Departed from His Church After Appearing on an HBO “Drag Show” and Found His Mission

Rev. Craig Duke is Rev. Dr. Brad Miller's guest on Episode 059 of the United Methodist People Podcast.

Craig tells the story of the unique opportunity that came his way to appear on the HBO Television show "We're Here" which features a traveling "Drag Queen" show that recruits and transforms local folk in smaller towns to participate in a "Drag Show."

Following a calling, Craig felt, to become a bridge between the church and LGBTQ community and to support his daughter Craig agreed to participate in the show.

The fallout following his appearance in the show led to his departure from his church.

In this episode, Craig tells the good, the bad, and ugly of his experience and his newfound commitment to new ministry opportunities.

For United Methodists following the debate in the church regarding how the church relates (or doesn't) to LGBTQ persons, this is a must listen to hear first-hand the personal heartache, drama, and rejoicing surrounding matters of human sexuality in our church.

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Transcript
Brad Miller:

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller here on the United

Brad Miller:

Methodist people podcast is the podcast where we are navigating

Brad Miller:

what is next in the United Methodist Church through

Brad Miller:

conversation and commentary. And it's a deed of pleasure today.

Brad Miller:

To bring it to our conversation, Reverend Craig Duke Craig glows

Brad Miller:

in the Evansville Indiana area, and has a background along and

Brad Miller:

very positive background as the United Methodist pastor. In the

Brad Miller:

last few months, though, he's been embroiled in some

Brad Miller:

conversation and some some difficulties and some challenges

Brad Miller:

and some great blessings as he appeared on the on an HBO

Brad Miller:

program show called we're here, which is involves the story of

Brad Miller:

three drag queens, who go to various small towns and to have

Brad Miller:

local folks who they have performed at a drag show. And

Brad Miller:

Craig participated in such an event in Evansville last summer

Brad Miller:

in the summer of 2021. And the program aired in November of

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2021. And sled to various of the challenges that Craig has had,

Brad Miller:

but opportunities and blessings. And we're going to talk about

Brad Miller:

that a little bit here today and all kinds of things about

Brad Miller:

mission and ministry, and the challenges of life and in our

Brad Miller:

world right now. But Craig, welcome to to the United

Brad Miller:

Methodist people podcast.

Craig Duke:

Thanks, Brad. It's good to be with you today. And I

Craig Duke:

look forward to our conversation always lots of talks about

Brad Miller:

well, Craig and I are good colleagues and ministry

Brad Miller:

in the state of Indiana and in personal friends and, and I

Brad Miller:

familiar with his background in ministry. But Craig Just to give

Brad Miller:

give a little context to folks who are listening to us just a

Brad Miller:

little bit about your history and ministry. You've been been

Brad Miller:

around in ministry for some time and just give a little

Brad Miller:

background, it kind of leads us up to the point we're going to

Brad Miller:

talk about here today.

Craig Duke:

Sure. I've been an ordained pastor for now going

Craig Duke:

into my 34th year. And I've always served in the United

Craig Duke:

Methodist Church in the state of Indiana. And I started out back

Craig Duke:

in 1988, and have served five churches up to that time, I'm in

Craig Duke:

my sixth church now. And during that time, it has been a

Craig Duke:

wonderful journey. I'm married. My wife, Linda and I serve

Craig Duke:

together. She's not ordained. But we met in seminary, and I

Craig Duke:

went to Garrett Evangelical Theological Seminary up in

Craig Duke:

Evanston, Illinois, where we met, fell in love and got

Craig Duke:

married. And we have one daughter, Tiffany, and she's

Craig Duke:

engaged to Ben. And so we've got lots of exciting things moving

Craig Duke:

forward in our life.

Brad Miller:

Well, and then, and I just want to say this about

Brad Miller:

the churches that you've served, and I'm familiar with this, in

Brad Miller:

almost every case, you've had a very positive ministry, is that

Brad Miller:

there, right, and some, you know, more people coming to

Brad Miller:

Christ and baptisms and affirmations, and you've had

Brad Miller:

some success at church camp. I just want to kind of affirm that

Brad Miller:

confirm that with you. Is that the case?

Craig Duke:

Yeah, I believe so. We've been very fortunate and

Craig Duke:

blessed in the church we served and, you know, you know, as well

Craig Duke:

as I do, we answer a call to go are sent. And we have as well.

Craig Duke:

And we have had a wonderful experience in church Camping

Craig Duke:

Ministry. That has certainly been something that's at the

Craig Duke:

heart for Linda and I and regardless of where we have

Craig Duke:

served in a local church, we have always been in Camping

Craig Duke:

Ministry, and the most often at a campground called the historic

Craig Duke:

Santa Claus campground in Santa Claus, Indiana, there really is

Craig Duke:

such a place for those of you that may not be familiar with

Craig Duke:

it. And we've enjoyed a wonderful ministry there with

Craig Duke:

from elementary all the way up to high school and college age

Craig Duke:

students, and having the opportunity to talk about life

Craig Duke:

to talk about Christ, and to have the opportunity for the to

Craig Duke:

to engage together. And then in our churches, we've had the

Craig Duke:

fortune of serving in some situations where the growth was

Craig Duke:

really tangible to see. One Two I lift up is the church I served

Craig Duke:

in Princeton, Indiana, which was a merger of three churches. And

Craig Duke:

that was an exciting and challenging time as we watch

Craig Duke:

those three churches work through leaving their respective

Craig Duke:

buildings, building something new, and then watch it blossom

Craig Duke:

in the community. So I would say yes, we've had a very positive

Craig Duke:

experience in our ministry where everything

Brad Miller:

is what kind of went for the friend where he's

Brad Miller:

had good success in ministry for well over 34 years. And so one

Brad Miller:

reason why I share that a little bit is because you found

Brad Miller:

yourself out of ministry at the present moment. And it's based

Brad Miller:

in large part due to some controversy stirred up when you

Brad Miller:

made some decisions in order to participate in a television

Brad Miller:

program that is which involve dressing in drag and performing

Brad Miller:

in drag. And then has then been stirred up controversy in your

Brad Miller:

local church setting where you're at and some other places

Brad Miller:

as well. But it's been an interesting experience. And

Brad Miller:

here's a question for you, Craig, is this How in the world

Brad Miller:

did this come about? Really? How did this emerge in your life out

Brad Miller:

of, you know, just kind of cruising along admission in

Brad Miller:

ministry, and then this opportunity came. And so tell us

Brad Miller:

the story about how this came about for you to be on the

Brad Miller:

television program we are here.

Craig Duke:

Well, it's turned out to be a remarkable moment

Craig Duke:

and phase of our lives. I received a phone call is where

Craig Duke:

it started. And it was a phone call from a person who is on the

Craig Duke:

pride board. in Evansville, the pride board is an organization

Craig Duke:

that works to provide positive support input and awareness for

Craig Duke:

the LGBTQI plus community, in the Evansville, and Evansville

Craig Duke:

greater area. I was simply asked one question, and that question

Craig Duke:

was, since I am an affirming pastor, and so that's part of my

Craig Duke:

journey, I am a person that believe love is love, and love

Craig Duke:

is for all and all should be accepted. And that goes for

Craig Duke:

LGBTQ brothers and sisters. I was asked as an affirming

Craig Duke:

pastor, would you be interested in willing to participate, and

Craig Duke:

then a reality show on HBO Max, that dealt with drag and

Craig Duke:

performing and drag. And I kind of chuckled. And I simply said,

Craig Duke:

Well, sure. Because I was convinced they would never call

Craig Duke:

me back. And so they did. What ended up being a several week

Craig Duke:

interviewing experience on both phone with COVID. And actually

Craig Duke:

some in person interviews, I realized they were interested in

Craig Duke:

me for a couple of reasons. One, I am the proud father of

Craig Duke:

Tiffany, as I mentioned, and Tiffany identifies as pansexual.

Craig Duke:

And that puts her on the spectrum in the LGBTQ community.

Craig Duke:

And so as the father of a gay child, and affirming a parent of

Craig Duke:

a gay child, they were intrigued to have a pastor a person of

Craig Duke:

quote unquote, religious authority to participate in this

Craig Duke:

very non conventional experience. After a series of

Craig Duke:

interviews, I would receive the phone call that said, we are

Craig Duke:

choosing you. And that set into motion, the reality of a week

Craig Duke:

long experience, where I was followed with cameras, and

Craig Duke:

series of interviews on camera, that engage me in dialogue with

Craig Duke:

members of the gay community with drag queens, as well as

Craig Duke:

answering my own questions. In regards to where I am

Craig Duke:

theologically spiritually and why I would participate in such

Craig Duke:

an experience, I would say that it turned out to be a very

Craig Duke:

transforming although challenging result.

Brad Miller:

And so it is evolved that you actually did

Brad Miller:

the performance and you made some connections with some

Brad Miller:

interesting and fascinating characters who you worked with

Brad Miller:

and, and just telephoto how that experience actually went tell us

Brad Miller:

about some of the folks that you've worked with on this

Brad Miller:

television program and, and how they work together, we'll get to

Brad Miller:

some of the trip stuff in a minute. But I'm really

Brad Miller:

interested in the the folks you've worked with,

Craig Duke:

I think it's great to give me an opportunity to

Craig Duke:

talk about that, because it is an amazing world culture

Craig Duke:

experience. And so I was I was immersed with a, a crew of

Craig Duke:

professional, camera crew professional, every one crew.

Craig Duke:

And the featured celebrities, if you will, on the show are three

Craig Duke:

drag queens, so I had the opportunity to work with Eureka,

Craig Duke:

who is considered to be my drag mother work was Chandeleur and

Craig Duke:

also Bob the drag queen. And that's the name that he goes by.

Craig Duke:

As I encountered and met with them, I I was made aware of some

Craig Duke:

of the vernacular that was to be important. Although my drag

Craig Duke:

mother is biologically a man, and as a man goes by David, when

Craig Duke:

in drag, and during our time together the whole time I

Craig Duke:

referred to her as you Rica. And I was referred to as a her my

Craig Duke:

pronouns are he, his and him, which are very important.

Craig Duke:

However, they referred to me, as a girl and daughter, during this

Craig Duke:

journey with my drag mother, as we would get together, whether

Craig Duke:

it be the makeup artist, or the other folks, it was clear that

Craig Duke:

the majority were most comfortable referring to each

Craig Duke:

others in the feminine. And it became very natural. How are you

Craig Duke:

doing girl? What's taking place at my drag daughter. And so what

Craig Duke:

I did discover, however, was working with all of these folks,

Craig Duke:

that drag was so much more than just a performance that some

Craig Duke:

would say over the top personality wise. I discovered

Craig Duke:

that drag was a calling for these folks. And they were they

Craig Duke:

were sharing and living out what they would call their their

Craig Duke:

fierce reality of exposing the world not just to drag but

Craig Duke:

creating awareness for the area. LGBTQ community, wherever that

Craig Duke:

may be. And so the name of the show we're here comes from the

Craig Duke:

fact that everywhere there are gay individuals. And so when

Craig Duke:

they arrive on the scene, what they're simply exposing, if you

Craig Duke:

will, are those gay members of that community that are willing

Craig Duke:

to either participate in the show and the experience, or for

Craig Duke:

all of the allies and other straight folks in the community,

Craig Duke:

to be educated, made aware, and given the opportunity to

Craig Duke:

experience a drag show. And in so doing, it created a bridge in

Craig Duke:

most circumstances, between the community and the LGBTQ

Craig Duke:

community, and creating an awareness, there were certainly

Craig Duke:

those moments and not just my episode, but other episodes,

Craig Duke:

where it was not as positive from some of the townfolk. But I

Craig Duke:

was fortunate in Evansville, that we did not receive any

Craig Duke:

protest, or anything of that nature. The

Brad Miller:

basic premise of the show, this isn't on HBO, is

Brad Miller:

that the crew, the drag show comes to town, small town,

Brad Miller:

America, wherever our places that would not in many contexts

Brad Miller:

would be known for having diversity and opinions turns to

Brad Miller:

having drag shows, and they recruit filarial folks, and they

Brad Miller:

make it known that theory or and it's it, and it's meant to, to

Brad Miller:

generate attention, that's for sure. On this and to raise

Brad Miller:

awareness here about this issue. And yeah, and I just have to,

Brad Miller:

you know, I watch the the program that you were on, and

Brad Miller:

some of the other ones as well, and, and saw that there is, you

Brad Miller:

know, genuine affirmation and affection between the folks and

Brad Miller:

encouragement and all kinds of other things that happened. And

Brad Miller:

I thought it was pretty cool. And yet also challenging. And

Brad Miller:

the Yeah, you know, you and I are both clergy in the United

Brad Miller:

Methodist Church. And when I first heard about this, I just,

Brad Miller:

I just really thought to myself, Oh, my, I really wonder how this

Brad Miller:

is going to go down. And meet Yeah, you do, man. And so that's

Brad Miller:

part of the reason we have this conversation, here's unpack

Brad Miller:

this. So you could speak for yourself, because, you know, a

Brad Miller:

lot of rumors, a lot of stories, good stuff have happened. And,

Brad Miller:

you know, this is been public sighs So I don't know, through

Brad Miller:

church channels, but through, you know, national news, and so

Brad Miller:

on your times, and things like, that is your opportunity to

Brad Miller:

speak for yourself. But I'm interested in breaking down a

Brad Miller:

little context of how this worked. In the church. As far as

Brad Miller:

I can see here, basically, Craig, you got kind of three

Brad Miller:

different dynamics, at least going on, you got the dynamic

Brad Miller:

with your daughter, which is a part and your family, which is a

Brad Miller:

part of the whole process here, you get the dynamic with the

Brad Miller:

folks on the show the what you're basically being exposed

Brad Miller:

to the best of my knowledge, at least to the LGBTQ community, in

Brad Miller:

depth at this level, which you would never have been before.

Brad Miller:

And then you got the dynamic in the church. So we want to talk

Brad Miller:

about the people of United Methodist Church on this

Brad Miller:

podcast, and you're one of the people, your daughter's one of

Brad Miller:

the people. And the people of the church that you're a part of

Brad Miller:

are part of that as well, as well as the dynamic in our

Brad Miller:

denominational system conference appointments and so on. How did

Brad Miller:

it go down? How did you kind of frame this going into the church

Brad Miller:

prior to, you know, committing to be a part of the show?

Craig Duke:

Sure. There are a couple of things that I did that

Craig Duke:

were very intentional. The first one was that when I was aware

Craig Duke:

that I was going to be participating, for sure, and I

Craig Duke:

made that decision. I met with a church staff. And all of the

Craig Duke:

church staff were made aware of my participating in the show the

Craig Duke:

episode what it would entail. And I made sure that they

Craig Duke:

understood why I was doing it. One for the relationship with my

Craig Duke:

daughter, but also because of the need, in my opinion, for the

Craig Duke:

church to reach out to all people but especially to the

Craig Duke:

LGBTQ community, which have been, by and large, not only

Craig Duke:

ostracized but certainly not included. Often churches will

Craig Duke:

use a term everyone's welcome here. And welcoming is fine, but

Craig Duke:

welcome is not the same as invitation. And and inviting

Craig Duke:

someone to truly be included. I use the analogy that it's one

Craig Duke:

thing to unlock the door. It's another thing to hold the door

Craig Duke:

open and guide people through it. And so with the church, I

Craig Duke:

told the staff, but I made a conscious decision not to make

Craig Duke:

the church aware at that point in time. Now, what has been

Craig Duke:

missing misconstrued is great secrecy was on my part, the the

Craig Duke:

ability for the church to continue to be themselves once

Craig Duke:

the camera crew came and filmed me on a Sunday morning. I was

Craig Duke:

giving the church plausible deniability and I was giving my

Craig Duke:

my supervisor and others plausible deniability so that

Craig Duke:

anything that did come down as a challenge or controversy would

Craig Duke:

not be on those people that I serve or be on those who I

Craig Duke:

worked for, but would come back towards me, that didn't work

Craig Duke:

quite the way that I dissipated. But I did invite the camera crew

Craig Duke:

to come on a Sunday morning. The reason that was important to me,

Craig Duke:

because I could have said, I'm aware of this, I could have

Craig Duke:

said, I really don't want you in the church. But of course,

Craig Duke:

that's the reality right now.

Brad Miller:

What else he said would send right there, wouldn't

Brad Miller:

it?

Craig Duke:

Yes, absolutely. And so I said, I'd like you to come

Craig Duke:

and film in the church. And they did on a Sunday morning. And

Craig Duke:

they filmed both our services. On the one service that we

Craig Duke:

livestream, they, they were much more conservative with their

Craig Duke:

cameras, because they didn't want to be seen in the live

Craig Duke:

stream. In the next service that was not being a live stream.

Craig Duke:

They were certainly more visible around the sanctuary. They were

Craig Duke:

not interrupted, there was no noise. But certainly the

Craig Duke:

congregation was aware that something was taking place. So

Craig Duke:

in between services, when I met with me, people of the

Craig Duke:

congregation at our our normal coffee and get together time,

Craig Duke:

people would ask, and I shared with them, that this is an HBO

Craig Duke:

reality show that I am participating in, as an

Craig Duke:

affirming pastor. And because I'm affirming and serving a

Craig Duke:

church that is not 100% affirming. That's why they've

Craig Duke:

chosen to include me in this episode. Some people heard that

Craig Duke:

well, other people did not. And so controversy down the road

Craig Duke:

ensued, when people looked back to that day, and began claiming

Craig Duke:

that they were not informed well, that it was not explained

Craig Duke:

well. And what I found out is that there were those on the

Craig Duke:

crew that had a different answer to people in the church than my

Craig Duke:

answer. It was not meant to the skies, it was meant to truly

Craig Duke:

talk about what the whole role of the show was. And so many

Craig Duke:

people in the church that day heard, we're filming a reality

Craig Duke:

show about small communities. Although that is true. That was

Craig Duke:

not the full story. And so after that, there were some

Craig Duke:

challenges.

Brad Miller:

Let me ask you this a couple things here, just about

Brad Miller:

the context here, because this is the crux of the matter, kind

Brad Miller:

of what, while you're no longer in that church, and this is kind

Brad Miller:

of the, you know, where the rubber hit the road here. And

Brad Miller:

we'll we'll get to that. So that here in just Just a minute,

Brad Miller:

we're there folks filming your services who were in drag or

Brad Miller:

somehow extra, you know, a traffic it that way?

Craig Duke:

No, absolutely not. That that has been a

Craig Duke:

misconception that there were drag queens in the worship

Craig Duke:

service. And the misconception that I myself was preaching in

Craig Duke:

drag. That was never, there was never anything on the table of a

Craig Duke:

desire, and it certainly never took place. Okay.

Brad Miller:

And just to clarify, just because it's kind

Brad Miller:

of the moment you met with your staff, and you did not meet with

Brad Miller:

church board or staff, parish or anybody like that priorities. So

Brad Miller:

just to be clear about, you know, how these are some of the

Brad Miller:

areas where you could be kind of questioned or you know, your

Brad Miller:

decision making could be questioned, at least in this

Brad Miller:

whole process. So there, so the foot film crew came, it was a

Brad Miller:

bit of a surprise for, for some, at least, that this would happen

Brad Miller:

in this kind of lead to Fun, fun, fun after that. So, big

Brad Miller:

boy, so you know, it kind of came down in the local church,

Brad Miller:

and then I'm sure with your super district superintendent,

Brad Miller:

others, that this got people's attention. And then well, I'll

Brad Miller:

just unpack a little bit some of the some of the good stuff and

Brad Miller:

some of the rough stuff that happened in the local churches

Brad Miller:

setting because there had to be both.

Craig Duke:

Well, the good stuff and the local church with this

Craig Duke:

particular show that happened during the filming, was the fact

Craig Duke:

that the camera crew of the majority of which are members of

Craig Duke:

the gay community, many had not been in church in a very long

Craig Duke:

time or never been in a church, because they didn't feel

Craig Duke:

welcome. And I remember one of the camera crew, whose pronouns

Craig Duke:

are her. And she said, well, at least lightning hasn't struck me

Craig Duke:

down. And she was referring to the fact that she had come into

Craig Duke:

the church as a gay individual, and she had not been killed by

Craig Duke:

the Lord God. And they're, they're being in the midst of

Craig Duke:

the church folk, was a wonderful thing to see. And for them to

Craig Duke:

experience that another positive thing is that the sermon I

Craig Duke:

preached that day and I did not change the sermon for the

Craig Duke:

episode. I planned my messages out three months in advance and

Craig Duke:

I continued with that, in this message, oh, there was talk of

Craig Duke:

unconditional love. One of the assistant producers that talked

Craig Duke:

to me afterwards and simply said, you know, that that

Craig Duke:

message you talked about unconditional love I, I really

Craig Duke:

liked that. I really liked that. They never heard that before.

Craig Duke:

And kind of referred to it as if it's something I came up with on

Craig Duke:

my own. And I clarified that for them. So that was a really neat

Craig Duke:

moment. The challenges really are our challenges that came

Craig Duke:

after the episode was aired. So in between the filming and

Craig Duke:

episode airing, all that took place in between at that time,

Craig Duke:

was that I did go to my supervisor, superintendent, and

Craig Duke:

I did go to my personnel leadership, and let them know of

Craig Duke:

my participation at that time. It was after the fact

Brad Miller:

just to get a little context or I'm sorry,

Brad Miller:

great little context. It was filmed in like summertime July

Brad Miller:

of 21, an area like November 21, over the Fourth of July 4 of

Brad Miller:

July weekend of 22 2021 in the aired in November of 21. So

Brad Miller:

there was some significant timeframe between right yes,

Craig Duke:

very much. I made them aware that I participated.

Craig Duke:

And once I made them aware and met with my supervisor and the

Craig Duke:

bishop, an executive assistant, they made it clear that I should

Craig Duke:

go ahead as my personnel Team tab Paris had asked me to, and

Craig Duke:

send a letter to the entire congregation, sharing my

Craig Duke:

participation, and apologizing for any trust for trust that was

Craig Duke:

broken. Because trust had been broken among some I did send out

Craig Duke:

that letter. And once the letter was sent out there, of course, a

Craig Duke:

lot more questions. Because truth be told that July 4 Sunday

Craig Duke:

when they found was very low attendance, as it is in most of

Craig Duke:

our churches. And I knew that and so people as they found out,

Craig Duke:

were feeling duped, feeling betrayed. And that's where the

Craig Duke:

the terms of secrecy came out, and so on and so forth. The

Craig Duke:

rough time really came not so much in those moments, because I

Craig Duke:

was answering their question, I was meeting with groups in the

Craig Duke:

church to explain and to give them a chance to air, their

Craig Duke:

concerns, anger, or what they're feeling. When the episode

Craig Duke:

finally was aired on November the eighth, that very next week

Craig Duke:

was not a challenge. There was only one article in the local

Craig Duke:

newspaper. And the church was doing fine. Please know that all

Craig Duke:

during this time, after that Fourth of July, when they were

Craig Duke:

in the service. I didn't preach about the show, I didn't talk

Craig Duke:

about the show I really didn't feel I had permission to. And so

Craig Duke:

that was never addressed. Once the show aired, the second week

Craig Duke:

after the show aired is really when things began to break

Craig Duke:

apart. Unfortunately, it was during that time that a member

Craig Duke:

of the congregation who had previously been so supportive,

Craig Duke:

changed and decided not to be supportive, when they saw me

Craig Duke:

dressed in drag, even though that was mentioned in the

Craig Duke:

letter, even though I was spoken about the fact that was a part

Craig Duke:

of the experience. That was enough to anger this person.

Craig Duke:

They started sending out emails to many people becoming angry,

Craig Duke:

that snowballed into some other folks in the church jumping on

Craig Duke:

that experience. And between the the anger, aggravation, the

Craig Duke:

nastiness I would say and and the criticism not just of me,

Craig Duke:

but of the LGBTQ community. And and my motivation being taken

Craig Duke:

out of context. It was a very painful, painful time. And it

Craig Duke:

was at that time, I went to my supervisor for help to say, I

Craig Duke:

cannot lead this church right now. Because I've lost that

Craig Duke:

ability.

Brad Miller:

And all this came down in a relatively short

Brad Miller:

order. I say the if I'm were call here correctly, Craig, the

Brad Miller:

program aired on November the eighth and by the end of

Brad Miller:

November, this all came down and you were you were no longer in

Brad Miller:

the pulpit? Is that is

Craig Duke:

that that is correct. My last sermon was

Craig Duke:

November the 15th. I didn't know it's gonna be my last sermon.

Craig Duke:

That was after November the 15th, that the emails were

Craig Duke:

generated. And an air of a letter going out to our

Craig Duke:

preschool parents to make an announcement that had not yet

Craig Duke:

been cleared or even shared, went out. And so there was quite

Craig Duke:

an upheaval, of challenge and confusion during that time. And

Craig Duke:

I was supported by my DS in that he agreed I should step away for

Craig Duke:

my own mental health. And I made that clear at that point in

Craig Duke:

time. It was not until two weeks after the 15th that an official

Craig Duke:

letter came out from my superintendent, sharing with a

Craig Duke:

church that I was being relieved of my pastoral duties due to my

Craig Duke:

mental health. It also shared and I think this is important

Craig Duke:

bread for a lot of people to understand it also shared that I

Craig Duke:

had done nothing that is a chargeable offense in regards to

Craig Duke:

our denomination, I had done nothing that was morally wrong.

Craig Duke:

I had simply found myself in the midst of a very large

Craig Duke:

disagreement with people that were very angry. And to that

Craig Duke:

end, I needed to step back, that that letter was designed to let

Craig Duke:

the church know that I was still in good standing, that I was

Craig Duke:

being removed from that congregation. And that during

Craig Duke:

that time, I was to, you know, not be involved with the church

Craig Duke:

as,

Brad Miller:

like you made some important points there in terms

Brad Miller:

of, you know, what we're talking about here, Craig, bigger, we

Brad Miller:

got what happened, you and kind of the micro, but the macro was

Brad Miller:

what's going on the whole United Methodist Church, how we handle

Brad Miller:

situations such as this. And so let me just, you mentioned you

Brad Miller:

were not brought up with any charges, you are not accused of

Brad Miller:

any, you know, moral failing or anything along that line. You

Brad Miller:

did not to go against the discipline, as far as I know,

Brad Miller:

and, and anything like that. And yet, you found yourself in this

Brad Miller:

circumstance, you mentioned about the superintendent

Brad Miller:

supporting you. How do you think things were, you know, we talked

Brad Miller:

about how things were handled in the local church setting, which

Brad Miller:

was rough. How do you think things were handled from the

Brad Miller:

conference in superintendency? In the bishop and cabinet, so

Brad Miller:

on, how do you? How do you feel about it?

Craig Duke:

Well, I certainly felt supported. And what I mean

Craig Duke:

by that is not supported in what I did decide to participate in.

Craig Duke:

But I felt supported in my role as pastor. And, and I felt

Craig Duke:

supported in that. They, they believe that what I did, they

Craig Duke:

understood. And in principle, there was some not all, but

Craig Duke:

there was some agreement with and they were, they were willing

Craig Duke:

to be there for me, and especially before the show aired

Craig Duke:

during those months, when, when the cabinet was made aware of

Craig Duke:

this experience. There was no admonition, you know, placed

Craig Duke:

upon me No, no structure strictures of any kind, I was

Craig Duke:

able to continue in my ministry, and everything was moving along

Craig Duke:

in a very normal and good way. So I felt I was never felt

Craig Duke:

isolated. That was the word I would use. Once the show aired,

Craig Duke:

and the problem happened. And they started to deal with it. I

Craig Duke:

was certainly sympathetic with the role that my leaders had to

Craig Duke:

play, they received a lot of criticism, once it made public

Craig Duke:

news that I was relieved from my duties in the church, and I

Craig Duke:

appreciated them willing to take the hit, if you will, and

Craig Duke:

criticism during that time, without coming back to me, and

Craig Duke:

and adding any more salt to the injury.

Brad Miller:

So just to be clear, then you were not

Brad Miller:

punished as such, you were not, you know, removed against your

Brad Miller:

will, from the church. Anything along this line, this was a kind

Brad Miller:

of between a rock and a hard place situation, as far as I can

Brad Miller:

tell. And by being fair here, Craig. Okay, I just want to make

Brad Miller:

sure that that kind of context here. And yet you've put in a

Brad Miller:

very difficult circumstance, you had to leave the church and

Brad Miller:

admit, with no appointment just to use our in our United

Brad Miller:

Methodist vernacular, it you were, I'm not even sure how what

Brad Miller:

your official status was, but you are certainly no longer

Brad Miller:

appointed to that local church, or whatever the circumstances,

Brad Miller:

but you had a reduction in salary. And you've kind of

Brad Miller:

lifted Limbo in a way in terms of our appointment system goes

Brad Miller:

is, so what let me just ask you, what is your official status as

Brad Miller:

we speak right now? And in the end of end of January of 2022?

Craig Duke:

And I have to answer honestly, today, I don't know.

Brad Miller:

So that's part of the issue. That's part of the

Brad Miller:

issue that we we are a lot of our church stuff is in limbo

Brad Miller:

right now, as we do with difficult circumstances. But

Brad Miller:

please say more. Yes.

Craig Duke:

Yeah. Normally, during a time like this, the

Craig Duke:

status would be either still appointed to the church but not

Craig Duke:

serving. It could be a voluntary leave of absence, or an

Craig Duke:

involuntary leave of absence, neither of which are applying in

Craig Duke:

this circumstance. And so that's a question I still need to ask

Craig Duke:

and, and I it's really ironic that I don't know that I have

Craig Duke:

not asked that lately, because in the early weeks, please no,

Craig Duke:

there was a lot of, of stuff within me. I had to deal with

Craig Duke:

emotion. situationally, and so those were questions that

Craig Duke:

weren't even formulated for me now I'm I'm, I'm two months into

Craig Duke:

this. And nearing the end of the time when I'm allowed to stay in

Craig Duke:

the parsonage which is the church home. And I find myself

Craig Duke:

now needing to ask that question. What is my current

Craig Duke:

status? I can say? For sure certain They have made it clear

Craig Duke:

I am still a pastor in good standing. I am a pointable. And

Craig Duke:

so those things certainly do apply. But I currently I don't

Craig Duke:

have I shouldn't say that there is I'm sure an official status

Craig Duke:

I've not been made aware of what that is?

Brad Miller:

Well, that's part of the deal. It's got to be, you

Brad Miller:

know, we I think, I think the circumstances, grn are have

Brad Miller:

happened in the past, but not quite as much as I'm aware of at

Brad Miller:

least, but I think they're going to be more and more, you know,

Brad Miller:

and sometimes people have been brought up on charges. You know,

Brad Miller:

in our discipline we had, when it comes to matters of human

Brad Miller:

sexuality, we all are aware and I met the church about the

Brad Miller:

controversies regarding the discipline, disciplinary

Brad Miller:

statements regarding the ordination of the same of

Brad Miller:

homosexual people LBGT up people and regarding marriage to same

Brad Miller:

sex people, is our crux of the matter we have here that's going

Brad Miller:

on in our church. And so in that matter, our did you come into

Brad Miller:

this within the church to kind of be a troublemaker to kind of

Brad Miller:

instigate stuff to try to pick out the depict? I'm just asking

Brad Miller:

you here, because I think these are questions that are going to

Brad Miller:

our asking here are, were you trying to instigate a response

Brad Miller:

here among the church? Or whatever they are? Were you

Brad Miller:

motivated to somebody come to you and say, Hey, you be our

Brad Miller:

point guy here. Anything along that line? Anything politically

Brad Miller:

related? So?

Craig Duke:

Yeah, not intentionally, at what I would

Craig Duke:

say that to be truthful about myself is that it's pretty much

Craig Duke:

second nature for me to jump in, for sure. That's, that's, I'm a

Craig Duke:

person that jumps in with both feet, and then works out some of

Craig Duke:

the pieces after the fact, in many situations, in this

Craig Duke:

experience. I think the question is also, you know, was I aware

Craig Duke:

is going to create this much controversy? No, I was aware,

Craig Duke:

there'd be some challenges clearly, and that not everyone

Craig Duke:

would be happy with it. No, it would it be for me in ministry,

Craig Duke:

to have intentionally moved in this direction to be a catalyst

Craig Duke:

of change at this level. That to me would really be

Craig Duke:

inappropriate. I'm certainly capable of doing things in

Craig Duke:

churches unconventionally to bring about light of an issue.

Craig Duke:

But in this particular case, honestly, this was a, a case

Craig Duke:

where I, I did jump in, and became involved in the

Craig Duke:

experience, looking for the positives in this. And the

Craig Duke:

positives, which I discovered a course was the information and

Craig Duke:

an awareness that I came into being immersed in the drag

Craig Duke:

culture, the the gay culture, and and I found it to be a

Craig Duke:

wonderful and accepting experience and wounds. And but I

Craig Duke:

will be honest about when when things do happen to this, I

Craig Duke:

don't, I don't back away meaning although I ended up stepping

Craig Duke:

away from the church because things have gotten so

Craig Duke:

emotionally challenging and difficult. My original words to

Craig Duke:

my personnel team in the church. Were simply these I said, please

Craig Duke:

allow me to stay here and lead this congregation through this

Craig Duke:

challenge. I'm aware it's made a hardship, I aware that there's

Craig Duke:

anger and frustration. But please allow me to lead you

Craig Duke:

through this hardship and for the congregation to get an

Craig Duke:

example of a pastor that leads through conflict. They agreed to

Craig Duke:

that, until the nastiness through the email the

Craig Duke:

conversations, folks that wrote to the pastor perish with with

Craig Duke:

air concerns, until that they were planning to allow me to

Craig Duke:

stay and do just that lead them through but I lost that.

Brad Miller:

And the leadership piece, Craig has to do with how

Brad Miller:

we are spiritual leaders of a congregation a community of

Brad Miller:

faith, and then also be a be impactful into the our

Brad Miller:

neighborhood, our neighbors, our community. So it kind of begs

Brad Miller:

the question, and we're gonna go here to some biblical and

Brad Miller:

theological stuff, you're here now. And, you know, there are

Brad Miller:

those who say, Okay, well, what biblical basis are you doing

Brad Miller:

this? You know, what would Jesus do in this situation? How are

Brad Miller:

you going to lead people through this spiritually, when some

Brad Miller:

people do not buy that this is valid, theologically or

Brad Miller:

spiritually, biblically. Speak to that a little bit?

Craig Duke:

Yeah. Well, theologically, I mean, what I've

Craig Duke:

come to understand is that Jesus was one of the most radical

Craig Duke:

persons ever to exist on the planet. And Jesus made it very

Craig Duke:

clear that love was an experience for all people. No

Craig Duke:

strings attached. No question. What by his example, Jesus led

Craig Duke:

by spending time with all walks of people, but certainly the

Craig Duke:

stories in the Gospel that are lifted up the most are the ones

Craig Duke:

where Jesus spent time with people that were not accepted. I

Craig Duke:

think that's an important thing to look at from a biblical

Craig Duke:

scholarly point of view. Because if if the gospels were written,

Craig Duke:

as some people have have claimed that the Gospels are fiction,

Craig Duke:

they were just written by people for their own desire. Well, if

Craig Duke:

that were the case, and they were trying to, to lift up a

Craig Duke:

positive experience of themselves, they would not have

Craig Duke:

included any of those experiences, because that would

Craig Duke:

have put them in harm's way which it did. Every one of

Craig Duke:

Jesus's followers save one were martyred physically. And one was

Craig Duke:

certainly isolated on an island by himself. And and so when they

Craig Duke:

incorporated these stories, it becomes clear that what they

Craig Duke:

wanted us to understand is that Jesus was altogether different.

Craig Duke:

And that his intense intent as a rabbi, as a believer, as one who

Craig Duke:

knew the scriptures, as one who taught others the scriptures was

Craig Duke:

saying, it's not working the way that you're doing, that the God

Craig Duke:

that I am with and the God that I represent my mother, my

Craig Duke:

father, loves all people. This is how you love you hold the

Craig Duke:

hand of the leper. You forgive the adulterer, you have a meal

Craig Duke:

with the embezzler. You spend time with the unwed mother. And

Craig Duke:

and in so doing and welcoming children in the midst of an

Craig Duke:

adult confrontation, you are setting an example of the

Craig Duke:

antithesis of society of that time, which is male dominated,

Craig Duke:

power dominated and rural dominated. Jesus comes in to

Craig Duke:

say, oh, no, no, no, no, you have that wrong. And and his

Craig Duke:

course end result is death upon the cross, although it was was

Craig Duke:

his giving his life it was also the result of people so angry at

Craig Duke:

what he had done to the status quo, that they came after him

Craig Duke:

now, what I can identify with is never his crucifixion. I've

Craig Duke:

never been crucified. I don't feel like I've been crucified.

Craig Duke:

But I can identify with the incredible depth of anger, that

Craig Duke:

people of faith are able to dish out when they believe that their

Craig Duke:

theology is threatened. And I will certainly say that in this

Craig Duke:

experience, by unabashed sharing, that God loves all

Craig Duke:

people, that that drag is a reality and that gay persons are

Craig Duke:

welcomed as they are, they do not need to change that

Craig Duke:

threatened many persons theologies. And when that Bible

Craig Duke:

is threatened, and they're unwilling to change or even have

Craig Duke:

discussions, it's already too late. And so I find myself

Craig Duke:

succumbing to that reality. So

Brad Miller:

how, how dare you say that Jesus loved all people,

Brad Miller:

my God, man, you all about now? And I guess, what do you all

Brad Miller:

about? So you know that I think that's the reality that we're

Brad Miller:

dealing with here now is that you mentioned just in what you

Brad Miller:

share there, you know, several biblical passages on scenarios

Brad Miller:

that Jesus was involved with. And so let's just let's

Brad Miller:

extrapolate out this little bit here. What do you think Jesus

Brad Miller:

would do if he was dropping into a situation you found yourself?

Craig Duke:

I think he would handle it even better. I think

Craig Duke:

that Jesus would have been able which I wasn't able to, at that

Craig Duke:

time, Jesus would have been able to, to go to those who were the

Craig Duke:

most angry, the most hateful, the most critical, Jesus would

Craig Duke:

be able to still go to them, and be with them and and not only

Craig Duke:

forgive them, but to invite them to a path of reconciliation,

Craig Duke:

and, and create a hope for that. That was something I was unable

Craig Duke:

to do my own hurt, feelings of heart and spirit. My own human,

Craig Duke:

very very fleshy anger and aggravation prevented me from

Craig Duke:

being able to take that step. I also think Jesus would have been

Craig Duke:

harsher in some areas. I think that when, when I first shared

Craig Duke:

with our personnel, team and staff parish, about what I've

Craig Duke:

been involved in, and they were upset and wanted a letter sent

Craig Duke:

and so on, so far, I think Jesus would have come back at them and

Craig Duke:

saying, Why on earth are you going to do have this person

Craig Duke:

send out a letter and apologize? When when really what this

Craig Duke:

person has done is offer love. Really what this person has done

Craig Duke:

is put themselves in someone else's literal shoes and put

Craig Duke:

themselves in somebody else's circumstance because Jesus tells

Craig Duke:

us when you're confronted with such things, you don't just give

Craig Duke:

What what you, you don't just give what you're able to give

Craig Duke:

you give more. And I think that would have been a challenge at

Craig Duke:

that point, and certainly a challenge to the church, to say

Craig Duke:

if you're angry about the inclusion of people different

Craig Duke:

than yourself, then you're not the church. Wow. And Jesus had a

Craig Duke:

lot about the lukewarm and that

Brad Miller:

kind of word there and, and done by golly, it just

Brad Miller:

sounds darn accurate to me. It sounds biblical. But let's, you

Brad Miller:

know, a part of what we're talking about here is not only

Brad Miller:

the dynamic in the church, and God loves the people in the

Brad Miller:

church. But God believes or you believe, and I believe they got

Brad Miller:

also loves your Rica and the other folks that you worked with

Brad Miller:

in the LGBTQ community and your daughter, and others. You know,

Brad Miller:

many people listen to this, clergy, families of folks LGBTQ

Brad Miller:

and so one, let's talk a little bit about the opportunity here

Brad Miller:

and about opportunity to last in some cases for the church, to

Brad Miller:

connect with people who are sometimes called the other, you

Brad Miller:

know, just different than what the norm would be expected to be

Brad Miller:

in your particular case here. Tell me what you learned about

Brad Miller:

how many people in LBGTQ community feel excluded from the

Brad Miller:

church, or feel far from God, and feel, feel ostracized in

Brad Miller:

some ways? And what are some ways we might go to start to

Brad Miller:

bridge some of this?

Craig Duke:

Okay. I would certainly say what I learned is

Craig Duke:

that there's incredible consistency in the stories of

Craig Duke:

rejection from the LGBTQ community, and primarily

Craig Duke:

rejection from faith and from church. And in the midst of that

Craig Duke:

rejection, they still are welcoming of me, intrigued to

Craig Duke:

talk about faith, and consistently shared different

Craig Duke:

voices sharing, that they still had a love of God, a love of

Craig Duke:

higher power, they still were spiritual people, but they just

Craig Duke:

realized they could not be included in institutional or

Craig Duke:

organized religion. The stories of hurt, rejection, and pain

Craig Duke:

were almost unbearable. And they weren't told to me all at once.

Craig Duke:

These were these were a camera person put their camera down for

Craig Duke:

a moment say Can I just tell you something? A makeup artist that

Craig Duke:

in the midst of putting makeup on my face would say, Well, you

Craig Duke:

know, I was I was homeless for a while as a kid in foster homes

Craig Duke:

and on on on the stories just just became a reality therapy

Craig Duke:

reffed of love. I gained a street cred is what I call it.

Craig Duke:

When I put on a dress. I had no idea what street cred. So as

Craig Duke:

much as there has been admonishment from from some

Craig Duke:

people of faith, there has been incredible blessing upon me from

Craig Duke:

from others in the LGBTQ community. And it's not just

Craig Duke:

that I have, quote, unquote, taken their side. What they have

Craig Duke:

communicated to me is that I have street cred because they

Craig Duke:

have never encountered a pastor willing to go that distance in

Craig Duke:

order to understand communicate, and to be with them. So the

Craig Duke:

opportunities that that can be lost, I'm hoping to capitalize

Craig Duke:

on so for example, you had talked in early on in the show

Craig Duke:

that their blessing? Well, yes, they were an individual from the

Craig Duke:

congregation started to go fund me for my family. Now, let's

Craig Duke:

keep in mind that Linda, and I've been in ministry 34 years,

Craig Duke:

we've never had anything like this needed or done for us on

Craig Duke:

our behalf. And in a period of just four days, a GoFundMe

Craig Duke:

raised just shy of $60,000. It came from 1400 different people,

Craig Duke:

the majority of those people giving 510 and $20, very few

Craig Duke:

large gifts. And out of those 1400, at least 140 of them left

Craig Duke:

personal messages in the GoFundMe account of

Craig Duke:

encouragement, of support. And being a part of the team. It was

Craig Duke:

overwhelmingly positive. And it was incredible. So to that end,

Craig Duke:

I've started a online faith community, which currently has

Craig Duke:

just shy of 150 participants. I've also started a podcast, not

Craig Duke:

not quite as sophisticated as yours at this point. But I have

Craig Duke:

just done three podcast. It's called dream catchers. And from

Craig Duke:

that we've been able to have people that follow up asking

Craig Duke:

about the scriptures I reference sharing the most powerful things

Craig Duke:

is they they're so excited to listen to this with their

Craig Duke:

sibling who's gay. They're thankful to be able to sit there

Craig Duke:

with their son or their daughter and listen to that experience.

Craig Duke:

It's amazing what that medium has has been gun to do. In other

Craig Duke:

words, what I've discovered is that just like the show's title,

Craig Duke:

we're here, there are people that are hurting in the gay

Craig Duke:

community everywhere. And in our communities of faith. There are

Craig Duke:

numbers upon numbers of people that may not be gay themselves,

Craig Duke:

him or herself, but certainly have siblings and friends and

Craig Duke:

others. I have 27 pages of affirmations and stories from

Craig Duke:

people. Throughout this experience, as well as I have

Craig Duke:

people continuing to connect with me some from my former

Craig Duke:

churches, sharing their story, one will only one that I'll

Craig Duke:

share. And that's from a gentleman who contacted me, and

Craig Duke:

reminded me that I did the wedding for he and his wife

Craig Duke:

nearly 30 years ago. And he felt that he was able to finally tell

Craig Duke:

me that the marriage lasted 13 years, until he came out as a

Craig Duke:

gay man, and is now married to his partner, his husband, and is

Craig Duke:

not only happy content, but still keeps in good relationship

Craig Duke:

with a mother of his children. These are the kinds of stories

Craig Duke:

that I continue to receive. And they're feeling permission to

Craig Duke:

talk about them in a faith context, for some in the very

Craig Duke:

first time in their lives.

Brad Miller:

So great opportunity here and opportunity

Brad Miller:

lost as well for further for the church. Because these, these are

Brad Miller:

people who matter to God, they do. And therefore they should

Brad Miller:

matter to the church if the church is an embodiment of

Brad Miller:

loving of all people. So I want to ask you one or two more

Brad Miller:

things, and I'll let you go what's next for you. You've

Brad Miller:

mentioned a couple things here. I know God has planned some

Brad Miller:

things in your heart and is also let's talk about the opportunity

Brad Miller:

to maybe before you're you've got a new platform, you've got a

Brad Miller:

new audience that is out there, as one audience may be

Brad Miller:

diminishing or changing. There may be some new opportunities

Brad Miller:

here. So tell me a little bit about what's next for you.

Craig Duke:

Locally, what's next is an event in March, that the

Craig Duke:

pride community is holding as a fundraiser for the pride board,

Craig Duke:

to raise funds that will one support a new inclusive

Craig Duke:

community of faith, to provide scholarships and financial aid

Craig Duke:

to people from the LGBTQ community that have no other

Craig Duke:

support, or they'd have been rejected from their families.

Craig Duke:

Very excited about that. The event will also include the

Craig Duke:

reigning Miss Gay America, which is a national person who will be

Craig Duke:

coming and performing. Here's the really cool thing for me, as

Craig Duke:

I've been talking, as recently as this weekend, to a group of

Craig Duke:

both allies and members of the LGBTQ community, and bridging

Craig Duke:

that gap now spiritually. So as I began to lift up the

Craig Duke:

possibility of an inclusive community of faith, there has

Craig Duke:

been excitement generated, there has been support generated. And

Craig Duke:

so to that end, on this after this March 5 experience, we'll

Craig Duke:

be announcing the first gathering of our inclusive

Craig Duke:

community of faith place yet to be determined. But right now

Craig Duke:

we're looking at it taking place in one of the local breweries

Craig Duke:

and bars, where people feel much more comfortable to come and

Craig Duke:

gather together and share their stories of life of faith and

Craig Duke:

sacrament. And that's what it's going to become. So I'm really

Craig Duke:

excited about that and really pumped up. In addition to that,

Craig Duke:

what's next is that we, we are still uncertain of where we're

Craig Duke:

going to be living next. And so we're in the process of doing a

Craig Duke:

couple things, both looking at homes, but also waiting for

Craig Duke:

information in regards to a next appointment as an elder in

Craig Duke:

United Methodist Church. And then thirdly, keeping in contact

Craig Duke:

with the wonderful friends that I met at HBO Max, we're here has

Craig Duke:

been approved for a third season, I've been able to keep

Craig Duke:

in contact with Eureka, my drag mother, and receiving her

Craig Duke:

support through this experience. And continuing that conversation

Craig Duke:

as to what may happen next. I know another piece will be a

Craig Duke:

faith based camp for middle school and high school kids that

Craig Duke:

is fully inclusive. We're already looking at that in July

Craig Duke:

for Indiana, and we're looking for that we're not I don't know

Craig Duke:

the date yet. But at a camp in Illinois, there is a real need

Craig Duke:

for young people that are dealing with the reality of

Craig Duke:

their sexual identity that is not heterosexual to be able to

Craig Duke:

go to camp and be in a safe, faith based environment where

Craig Duke:

they hear the reality of God's love and get a chance to ask

Craig Duke:

really hard and tough questions. And we look forward to being

Craig Duke:

involved in that experience. And so those are the things that

Craig Duke:

keep my brain going keep me up at night. And also get me

Craig Duke:

thinking about what

Brad Miller:

so it's not like your life ended did it you

Brad Miller:

didn't end when all this came down and you know, in some ways

Brad Miller:

Yeah. Some ways you No opportunities were some

Brad Miller:

opportunities may have closed or altered for you and you know,

Brad Miller:

opportunities have come in. That's a good thing. And,

Brad Miller:

Leslie, I want to leave with this kind of thought or this one

Brad Miller:

last emphasis because I really like to try to, you know, we've

Brad Miller:

talked about some really tough stuff here today. But, you know,

Brad Miller:

I also like to kind of leave on an encouraging note if I can,

Brad Miller:

and that is with with this, let's just say that there is

Brad Miller:

that person. Maybe it's United Methodist clergy person, maybe

Brad Miller:

it's the United Methodist, Methodist lay person, or a,

Brad Miller:

someone related to that maybe it's someone who is LGBTQ

Brad Miller:

themselves, but has not come out with that. Or maybe they have a

Brad Miller:

son or daughter or a sister, or a mother or dad, or some in

Brad Miller:

their life or a friend, or somebody in the choir, or

Brad Miller:

somebody the youth group, who they how do I handle this? How

Brad Miller:

do I do this? How can we be men and women, young people of

Brad Miller:

faith? And given all the pressures in our world right now

Brad Miller:

and just particular to this particular issue, which is so

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pertinent our United Methodist Church, as we know someone's

Brad Miller:

going to come down this year on this whole matter? Really? But

Brad Miller:

what encouraging word would you get to that United Methodist

Brad Miller:

person because as the United Methodist people podcast about

Brad Miller:

how, what is a step forward? What's an encouraging word of

Brad Miller:

that person?

Craig Duke:

The step forward continues to be dialogue and

Craig Duke:

conversation, not debate and controversy. I would say to all

Craig Duke:

of those folks, you're not alone, you're not alone and

Craig Duke:

questioning how is this going to work? And you're not alone in

Craig Duke:

saying, Is there a place for me, there are plenty of resources

Craig Duke:

that are beginning to be available more and more, you

Craig Duke:

won't find them in Christian curriculum. But I would look for

Craig Duke:

those local communities that have a pride board, or an LGBTQ

Craig Duke:

place. And if not, as I tell on my broadcast, I always give out

Craig Duke:

my email, they can contact me at Craig do craig.duke@gmail.com.

Craig Duke:

And I'll get them to the resources that they need.

Craig Duke:

Another good resource is the reconciliation ministries. That

Craig Duke:

is a national experience. And several churches have become

Craig Duke:

reconciling churches, which means they're not only

Craig Duke:

affirming, but they're hoping to reconcile, bring together, those

Craig Duke:

who are trying to understand the gay community, those who may be

Craig Duke:

against it, those that may be in the midst of it, as Brad just

Craig Duke:

said, and bring them together for a time of reconciliation and

Craig Duke:

hope. The church continues to be a place of hope. I continue to

Craig Duke:

be a person of hope. I serve the God of hope. And and I would

Craig Duke:

say, don't lose your hope. Don't despair. Because although it's

Craig Duke:

challenging to talk about those issues, that we don't yet feel

Craig Duke:

comfortable. It is only through that conversation and

Craig Duke:

relationship, as Jesus taught us relationship with one another,

Craig Duke:

will we be able to go any further together. So I encourage

Craig Duke:

you to continue to talk and converse and pray and have faith

Craig Duke:

that God will deliver us from whatever our situation is going

Brad Miller:

well. So thank you for that. And I just want to say

Brad Miller:

to you that, from my perspective, as your colleague

Brad Miller:

and friend, that I just really commend you for taking a stand

Brad Miller:

for the gospel, even in the midst of some really difficult

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circumstances. And to put yourself out there, you know, it

Brad Miller:

sounds a little bit like Jesus and Matthew and some of the tax

Brad Miller:

collectors and so on. And maybe a little bit Wesleyan about

Brad Miller:

being in the bars and pubs and things like that. It just sounds

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like there's some opportunities there. And I know it's kind of

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personal for me, because I know some of the folks you're

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involved with your church you serve as a church, I have a very

Brad Miller:

close connection with and and know that there's opportunities

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here and for mission ministry, but we have to choose to work

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through it. And I love what you said about being in conversation

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and comment here. That's our purpose here of the United

Brad Miller:

Methodist people podcast to navigate a way forward with

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conversation and commentary, and to have a positive spin on

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everything that we're doing. So thank you, Craig, appreciate

Brad Miller:

your being out there, my man and being out there. So thank you so

Brad Miller:

much.

Craig Duke:

Well, thank you for the opportunity to have

Craig Duke:

conversation today. And to be able to share I appreciate that.

Craig Duke:

All right.

Brad Miller:

Well, you've heard Craig Duke and we'll put

Brad Miller:

Reverend Craig Duke, we'll put connections to everything that

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he's about his email and the various organizations that he's

Brad Miller:

talked about here on our website, United Methodist

Brad Miller:

podcast.com. Our show notes there, and we appreciate you

Brad Miller:

being with us today. Good people on the United Methodist people

Brad Miller:

podcast with Reverend Dr. Brad Miller.

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About the Podcast

The United Methodist People Podcast
The United Methodist People Podcast is about the pastors, people, ministries of the United Methodist Church as the church navigates anxious times
The United Methodist People Podcast is all about the pastors, people, ministries, and work of the United Methodist Church. The focus is telling the stories which help the United Methodist Church navigate anxious times and support the mission of Making Disciples of Jesus Christ for the Transformation of The World. The United Methodist Podcast also will address issues and matters which challenge the church and provide a forum for constructive discourse to take place over matters regarding the polity and practice of the United Methodist Church.
The United Methodist Podcast is a place for opinion and conversation among persons who care about the health and vitality of the United Methodist Church and is not in any way officially sanctioned by any part of the United Methodist Church.

About your host

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Dr. Brad Miller

I have 40 years of experience in Christian ministry and hold a Doctoral degree in life transformation strategic planning. I am the publisher of the Cancer and Comedy Podcast: Helping Cancer Impacted People to Heal with Hope and Humor