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Published on:

15th Mar 2021

44. “Making the Road As We Walk It” A Conversation About Seminary Education in Challenging Times with President Javier Viera from Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary

President Javier Viera from Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary and Indiana Area Bishop Julius Trimble are Rev. Dr. Brad Miller's guests on Episode 44 of The United Methodist People Podcast for an in-depth conversation about seminary education in challenging times.

President Viera assumed leadership of the Evanston, Illinois campus on January 1, 2021, after serving on the faculty and administration of Drew University School of Theology. A native of San Juan, Puerto Rico, Viera is the first person of color and the first Latino to hold the office of president in the seminary’s 167-year history.

President Viero spoke about his personal faith in Jesus Christ and his pathway which lead him to the Presidency at G-ETS prior to diving into a conversation about the challenges and opportunities in theological education in the present context of society and matters impacting the United Methodist Church.

President Viero quoted the Spanish poet Machado “making the road as we walk it” as descriptive of the situation facing seminaries. In particular, President Viera said “one of the things that that we are facing as a seminary is the fact that we're training people for a world that we do not yet fully understand, and that we aren't certain of what it will look like.”

He talked about theological education is a gift to the church because often the seminary is the place for engaging in dialogue and critical analysis of, of the brokenness of the world and wanting to be a part of, of the healing and the restoration, and resourcing the place of the church to lead in that regard.

The conversation led to a discussion of the purpose of graduate theological education itself. He concluded beyond academics in many ways seminary is a graduate school of leadership, and of public service, and of sending people out into the world to serve in those capacities.

This is a must listen to any United Methodist leaders invested and interested in the importance and future of seminary education.

Folks can learn more about President Javier Viera and Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary at www.garrett.edu.

The mission of the United Methodist People Podcast is to strengthen the connection in the United Methodist Church through conversation and commentary and is published by Rev. Dr. Brad Miller who is an active Elder in the Indiana Annual Conference of the UMC.

Rev. Dr. Brad Miller

March 2021

Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary

Transcript
Brad Miller:

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller with you here on the

Brad Miller:

United Methodist people podcast. This is the podcast where we

Brad Miller:

hope to look to strengthen the connection in the United

Brad Miller:

Methodist Church through conversation and commentary. And

Brad Miller:

for a number of episodes, Bishop Julius tremble, and I have been

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looking to encourage you, the listeners, clergy and people who

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love the United Methodist Church in such a time as this, and we

Brad Miller:

do so by talking to lots of people and leaders in the

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church. One of the leaders in the church who we're talking to

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it today is Reverend Dr. Harvey, a president. Harvey, a ver era,

Brad Miller:

who is the president of Garrett evangelical Theological

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Seminary. He started his term there, January one of 2021. And

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he is comes to Garrett evangelical, as a native of San

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Juan, Puerto Rico and is the first person of color in the

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first Latino to hold the office of president at Garrett

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evangelical Theological Seminary. And he's noted for his

Brad Miller:

innovation, his commitment to education, and to bring a fresh,

Brad Miller:

fresh perspective to Garrett. After serving a period of time

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at drew University, where he was the vice provost. He has been

Brad Miller:

involved with transformational theological school curriculum,

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degree programs and initiatives and increase in enrollment and

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involved with the role of religion in Latin America. And

Brad Miller:

through Latin X causes. It's great to have him with us of

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course, Bishop trebles been with us at times, he is the Bishop of

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the Indiana area of United Methodist Church, then the

Brad Miller:

bishop in Indiana since 2016. I welcome both of you to the

Brad Miller:

United Methodist people podcast.

Bishop Julius Trimble:

Thank you for having me. On. It's good to

Bishop Julius Trimble:

be here. And welcome to President Vieira. We're so glad

Bishop Julius Trimble:

to have them, and to have them in our North Central

Bishop Julius Trimble:

jurisdiction and, of course, the opportunity to be in

Bishop Julius Trimble:

conversation. Excellent, excellent. Well, this is a great

Bishop Julius Trimble:

opportunity, especially since as you've just started your term of

Bishop Julius Trimble:

President era as president of Garrett evangelical, which

Bishop Julius Trimble:

happens to be the both visual Trump and I are alumni of that

Bishop Julius Trimble:

institution, alumni of that institution, and we have a great

Bishop Julius Trimble:

love and affection for it. And we want to see good things

Bishop Julius Trimble:

happen there. And we feel good about your presidency there. But

Bishop Julius Trimble:

we want to we want to learn a little bit about you in this

Bishop Julius Trimble:

process. One of the things I love to learn about our guest

Bishop Julius Trimble:

and United Methodist people podcast is not only your

Bishop Julius Trimble:

professional situation now, but about your face. So let's hear a

Bishop Julius Trimble:

little bit about your faith in Jesus Christ, what brought you

Bishop Julius Trimble:

to faith in the first place, and a little bit about your journey

Bishop Julius Trimble:

which eventually led you now to the presidency of Garrett

Bishop Julius Trimble:

evangelical? Sure, sure. And again, thank you both for, for

Bishop Julius Trimble:

having me and for giving really Garrett this opportunity to, to

Bishop Julius Trimble:

be in touch with your audience and, and to show and for you

Bishop Julius Trimble:

demonstrate the excellence of the the women and men that we

Bishop Julius Trimble:

send out into ministry.

Javier Viera:

Reflecting on my own sense of faith, I am I am

Javier Viera:

one of those people who can honestly say that there is not a

Javier Viera:

day in my memory where I have not known the cradle the embrace

Javier Viera:

of, of the church. And there's not a moment where I have

Javier Viera:

understood myself as not being other than a Christian and as a

Javier Viera:

disciple of Jesus Christ. And so, you know, I was born in in,

Javier Viera:

as you mentioned earlier, San Juan, Puerto Rico into a Roman

Javier Viera:

Catholic family was baptized in you know, in brought up in my

Javier Viera:

formative years in that tradition. And then later, when

Javier Viera:

my family moved from Puerto Rico to Florida, we were invited by

Javier Viera:

actually one of my brother's teachers to attend the Methodist

Javier Viera:

Church, which, you know, was a bit strange for my parents who,

Javier Viera:

you know, had my parents had not only been born and raised Roman

Javier Viera:

Catholic, all of their education had taken place in Catholic

Javier Viera:

institutions. And so the world outside of that was somewhat

Javier Viera:

unknown to them. But we were welcomed into this

Javier Viera:

into this community, I think with with real warmth. And, and

Javier Viera:

then there was a, a small, a very small but burgeoning

Javier Viera:

Hispanic, Latinx Spanish speaking group of people who are

Javier Viera:

starting to, to congregate there and from their mission church

Javier Viera:

grew, that nurtured me and on my faith journey, for for the years

Javier Viera:

to come. And that eventually kind of launched me into

Javier Viera:

ministry. A lot happened in between that, but, but that's

Javier Viera:

sort of where I would say would be the genesis of my own faith

Javier Viera:

story.

Javier Viera:

really being born into the cradle of the church, but then

Javier Viera:

also being nurtured. And, and launched, you know, by, by God's

Javier Viera:

people who saw, you know, whatever it is the spark of

Javier Viera:

God's calling me and helped me to recognize it, and help me to

Javier Viera:

pay attention to it and and encouraged me on that way.

Javier Viera:

That's awesome. So that was your story of coming to faith and

Javier Viera:

then

Brad Miller:

what led you into ministry then to pursue this as

Brad Miller:

your vocation, and eventually into the educational world, and

Brad Miller:

then to eventually the presidency of Garrett

Brad Miller:

evangelical? Sure, so and so to say that I cannot remember a

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time or a moment where I, you know, this hasn't been my

Brad Miller:

identity doesn't mean that I will always have clarity about a

Brad Miller:

call to ministry. And so when I went to college, I, you know, I

Brad Miller:

studied religious studies and political science, I was a

Brad Miller:

double major, and, and really thought that I was going to go

Brad Miller:

in that direction, I spent some time in Washington, DC, working

Brad Miller:

for the United States, Congressman.

Javier Viera:

And it was really during that experience, where I

Javier Viera:

remember we came back from a fundraiser together, the

Javier Viera:

congressman and I had a lot in common we, we had both been born

Javier Viera:

into, you know, Latino, Roman Catholic families eventually

Javier Viera:

became Methodist, under similar circumstances, and, and it was

Javier Viera:

really, you know, one day I was talking to him about, he asked

Javier Viera:

me about my future, where do you really see yourself going and,

Javier Viera:

and as I talked, again, this is an example of how the church and

Javier Viera:

its people helped me discern my own direction. He said something

Javier Viera:

to me that I'd never forgotten. And it stayed with me. And he

Javier Viera:

just said to me, simply heavier, the world needs a lot more good

Javier Viera:

ministers, and it needs politicians. Now, in today's

Javier Viera:

world, I'm not sure that's true, we need a lot of good qualities.

Javier Viera:

It's, as we in that moment, in time, it was almost, it was

Javier Viera:

almost the permission that I needed to kind of explore this.

Javier Viera:

And so from there, I decided to start exploring it, I ended up

Javier Viera:

attending Duke Divinity School in Durham, North Carolina, which

Javier Viera:

was an absolutely transformative experience for me, I'm very, I

Javier Viera:

was changed spiritually, intellectually, in terms of my

Javier Viera:

own, you know, personal maturation through that

Javier Viera:

experience. And it was really there while at two that I came

Javier Viera:

to accept the sense of, of calling in my life and, and, and

Javier Viera:

I was still trying to discern, okay, does this get lived out?

Javier Viera:

In congregational ministry and leadership? Or, you know, I had

Javier Viera:

a, I had a very active intellectual life and or do I

Javier Viera:

pursue this through the Academy, and at the time, I decided I'll

Javier Viera:

try both. And so after I finished a Duke, I went to Yale

Javier Viera:

Divinity School and did another degree in ethics, at at Yale,

Javier Viera:

and but at the same time, was serving a congregation in New

Javier Viera:

York City. And what I found over the course of my time, in that

Javier Viera:

program, is that I was being drawn more and more to the

Javier Viera:

congregational work, there was something about it, the

Javier Viera:

connection to people and their lives and, and to the work of

Javier Viera:

ministry, and really, the work of helping to kind of dream

Javier Viera:

about what this congregation in the middle of Manhattan could be

Javier Viera:

and the impact that it could have. And that really was

Javier Viera:

compelling to me. And I, for the next you know, 18 years of my

Javier Viera:

life, I gave myself over to to congregational ministry, and,

Javier Viera:

and felt very fulfilled in that work.

Brad Miller:

That's awesome. And then so you serve the churches

Brad Miller:

in New York City and other urban environments. And then you then

Brad Miller:

you eventually transitioned into the academic world, and evolved

Brad Miller:

now it to be the president ted kennedy of angelical.

Javier Viera:

Right, right. Yeah, I mean, I served in a

Javier Viera:

number of as I was discerning and coming to this call, I, I

Javier Viera:

served for several years as a as a youth director of a large

Javier Viera:

youth program in Florida, and then served, you know, rural

Javier Viera:

congregations in North Carolina through like internship

Javier Viera:

experiences, but then came to New York City and served one

Javier Viera:

congregation for 14 years and another congregation for four

Javier Viera:

years. And then eventually came into the deanship at drew

Javier Viera:

theological school in the interim, while I was doing

Javier Viera:

pastoral work, I also pursued doctoral studies and, and did my

Javier Viera:

work. Really, my work focused on On the, you know, the moral

Javier Viera:

formation and the learning that takes place in engagement across

Javier Viera:

religious differences. So I did a lot of work on interfaith

Javier Viera:

dialogue and encounters across religious differences of people

Javier Viera:

who from completely different traditions. And and that work

Javier Viera:

really grew out of my pastoral work because coming into a

Javier Viera:

congregation in the middle of Manhattan, and and realizing how

Javier Viera:

quickly I was having to deal pastorally with interfaith

Javier Viera:

families. You know, the one one spouse was Jewish one was

Javier Viera:

Christian, what how are we going to do? What are we going to do

Javier Viera:

with baptizing children? Are we how are we going to raise them?

Javier Viera:

Or couples who are discerning can be be married? You know, one

Javier Viera:

of us is Hindu, one of us is Christian, what do we do? How do

Javier Viera:

we think is

Brad Miller:

one of the things I'm really glad to hear you say,

Brad Miller:

President is how you'd have this diverse experience, both in the

Brad Miller:

local church, and in your experiences in the local church,

Brad Miller:

and in the academic settings. So you bring that to bear and I

Brad Miller:

think it's so so important for us to we does have a real need

Brad Miller:

for integration into the local church, and it's a society of

Brad Miller:

theological education and perspective. And I think that's

Brad Miller:

part of the agenda that I know Bishop Tribble wants to speak to

Brad Miller:

you about. So Bishop what I know you had some things in mind, did

Brad Miller:

you really want to speak to President for your about?

Bishop Julius Trimble:

Oh, again, I've had the chance to

Bishop Julius Trimble:

meet President Vieira with the College of Bishop says briefly,

Bishop Julius Trimble:

but I, I really appreciate this opportunity. And I look forward

Bishop Julius Trimble:

to post COVID. Whenever that is to have you come to Indiana, I

Bishop Julius Trimble:

would love to serve you, we certainly want to keep that

Bishop Julius Trimble:

strong connection. We don't have a United Methodist Seminary in

Bishop Julius Trimble:

Indiana. But we have, you know, we're relatively close to

Bishop Julius Trimble:

United, which is in Dayton. And we have folks that go to Asbury,

Bishop Julius Trimble:

we have folks that go to the Christian Theological Seminary,

Bishop Julius Trimble:

which is here in Indianapolis, and we have students at Garrett.

Bishop Julius Trimble:

So I know this is a you probably when you if you were planning

Bishop Julius Trimble:

your future, it wasn't COVID wasn't in the picture, or has

Bishop Julius Trimble:

certainly taken taking a new role like this, amidst this

Bishop Julius Trimble:

environment. You know, for the last several years, Brad, you

Bishop Julius Trimble:

know, we've been talking a lot about adaptive leadership. Yes,

Bishop Julius Trimble:

this is an environment where leaders of institutions and

Bishop Julius Trimble:

conferences and local congregations are having to be

Bishop Julius Trimble:

adaptive. I was wondering president Vieira, as you've come

Bishop Julius Trimble:

into a new, new role as president of Garrett, in this

Bishop Julius Trimble:

environment, the COVID environment? What are some of

Bishop Julius Trimble:

the adaptive challenges that you you have faced? And what are the

Bishop Julius Trimble:

opportunities, maybe aha moments or God, or, or glory sightings

Bishop Julius Trimble:

along the way that you've discovered, even in this these

Bishop Julius Trimble:

early early weeks? Right.

Javier Viera:

What a great question, bishop. And I think

Javier Viera:

that the way that I would answer that is that, I think one of the

Javier Viera:

early challenges that has become very clear to me and that and I

Javier Viera:

know, this has to be clear for you and your colleagues as well,

Javier Viera:

is my sense that, that the world as we knew it, is not going to

Javier Viera:

be a world that we return to when we're on the other side of

Javier Viera:

COVID-19. I think that congregational life, I think

Javier Viera:

that community life, will will be different in significant

Javier Viera:

ways. And, and one of the things that that we are facing as a

Javier Viera:

seminary is the fact that we're training people for a world that

Javier Viera:

we do not yet fully understand, and that we aren't certain of

Javier Viera:

what it will look like, right? So that we're training, there

Javier Viera:

was a there was a point of time, certainly when I was coming

Javier Viera:

through seminary, where what I was trained for, I felt was very

Javier Viera:

much the world that I walked into, and a lot of people feel

Javier Viera:

like oh, seminary didn't prepare me for I, you know, I actually

Javier Viera:

felt like I was very well prepared. Like my, my seminary

Javier Viera:

prepared me didn't, didn't give me every answer, but certainly

Javier Viera:

prepared me for the world that I stepped into. I don't know that

Javier Viera:

we live in that moment right now. Right? And so that as a

Javier Viera:

theological school faculty, we're we're having to not only

Javier Viera:

discern, how do we, you know, adapt to all of the changes,

Javier Viera:

pedagogically that we have to, you know, in technologically in

Javier Viera:

order to keep the seminary going, and in order to meet the

Javier Viera:

commitments that we've made to our students, and to the

Javier Viera:

congregations that are going to go serve. But really, it's a

Javier Viera:

larger question of, what is the role of, of people of faith in a

Javier Viera:

world that is That in which 500,000 of her fellow citizens

Javier Viera:

have now died in a world that has been completely Uprooted by

Javier Viera:

the unfinished work of racial justice and racial inequality?

Javier Viera:

How do we prepare people to go into lead into into

Javier Viera:

congregational and community settings? In a world where

Javier Viera:

economic inequality and the impact of of the economic

Javier Viera:

downturn is hitting families and individuals in really intense

Javier Viera:

ways? And where is the church in that? What is the church's role

Javier Viera:

in that? Right?

Unknown:

We're, we're,

Javier Viera:

you know, I, the phrase that I like to use a lot

Javier Viera:

is, comes from, you know, the Spanish poet Machado, which is,

Javier Viera:

we make the road by walking, right. And that's what we're

Javier Viera:

having to do. We, we are figuring this out and making the

Javier Viera:

road as we walk it, and, and part of what I think that we

Javier Viera:

have to do, there are, there is a great wisdom in the tradition

Javier Viera:

that we are a part of this, we are not the first Christians who

Javier Viera:

have confronted uncertain times, and overwhelming times, and to

Javier Viera:

be able to draw on that tradition to be able to see the

Javier Viera:

way that our ancestors and predecessors in the faith have

Javier Viera:

surpassed and confronted their own challenges. There's

Javier Viera:

something to learn from that. So I'm one who actually believes

Javier Viera:

that, you know, this isn't a moment to have less theology and

Javier Viera:

less history and less Bible, it's actually time for more of

Javier Viera:

that, because it's by dive diving more deeply into the

Javier Viera:

tradition and and gleaning the wisdom from that, that we can

Javier Viera:

then begin to have a clear sense of how we move forward as people

Javier Viera:

of faith as Christian people of faith in this given moment.

Brad Miller:

One of the things that is said in some of the

Brad Miller:

data, or some of the introductory comments about you

Brad Miller:

on your website says that you are preparing students for such

Brad Miller:

a time as this. And I think you are touching on that right here.

Brad Miller:

And what your comments are dealt with the time we are going to

Brad Miller:

emerge into is just different than where we came from. But now

Brad Miller:

we're in this chaotic time right now. What are some of the

Brad Miller:

pragmatic things that we can do, though, President? What are some

Brad Miller:

of the pragmatic things you're preparing students to do? When

Brad Miller:

they leave Garrett and go to those congregations which have

Brad Miller:

been devastated in one way or another yield socially,

Brad Miller:

economically, racial strife have been what not meeting and

Brad Miller:

worship in person for months upon it? Any number of things?

Brad Miller:

What are some of the practical pragmatic things that we can do

Brad Miller:

to prepare those pastors and clergy you're going out there?

Javier Viera:

I think I think a couple of things. One is that I

Javier Viera:

think that we are not simply preparing people to go and lead

Javier Viera:

institutions, right, even though that's something that we

Javier Viera:

absolutely have to do, right. People have to know how to

Javier Viera:

relate to other human beings, they have to know how to manage

Javier Viera:

facilities, they have to know how to read a budget

Javier Viera:

spreadsheet, right. But what we're also hopefully training

Javier Viera:

them to do is to be a public theologian, and to be the public

Javier Viera:

witness of the church in the communities that they go to. So

Javier Viera:

what we have to train them to do, what we have to prepare them

Javier Viera:

to do well, is to learn how to read the, the social context in

Javier Viera:

which they are going to not step into a community assuming that

Javier Viera:

they're bringing solutions, but actually, to become immersed in

Javier Viera:

the life of that community to learn what the people's needs

Javier Viera:

are, what the people's aspirations are, and to begin to

Javier Viera:

be to begin to lead congregational life in a way

Javier Viera:

that's responsive to that in a way that, you know, that sees

Javier Viera:

the divide between the spiritual and the secular as something

Javier Viera:

that that doesn't make sense anymore, to see that the work of

Javier Viera:

of economic justice and racial justice and spiritual formation

Javier Viera:

and moral formation is all part of the work of the church, not

Javier Viera:

something that the church does, you know, just through its

Javier Viera:

Outreach Ministries or something that it does as a side, but that

Javier Viera:

this more spiritual work is it's essential work. No, it's all

Javier Viera:

part of what Christian witness and ministry in the world is.

Javier Viera:

And that and that we see that that work is in fact spiritual

Javier Viera:

work, doing the work of social repair, and economic justice and

Javier Viera:

social justice in in the community. I think all of that

Javier Viera:

is a way of caring for people's souls, nurturing their spiritual

Javier Viera:

hunger and spiritual lives because the two don't exist in

Javier Viera:

separate universes but are part of an integral whole

Brad Miller:

Should What do you need to hear from President

Brad Miller:

Vieira, the terms of when pastors come out of seminary and

Brad Miller:

come to be appointed into our local churches? What kinds of

Brad Miller:

things do you need from the seminaries for the pastor's

Brad Miller:

coming out? Now?

Bishop Julius Trimble:

I resonate with what President

Bishop Julius Trimble:

Veera said earlier, I came out of Garrett bread, I don't know

Bishop Julius Trimble:

how you felt, I felt fairly well prepared for ministry for the

Bishop Julius Trimble:

world in which we were living in at the time.

Brad Miller:

I did as well. Yes.

Bishop Julius Trimble:

In fact, I felt quite privileged because

Bishop Julius Trimble:

some of my classmates didn't know where they were going. I

Bishop Julius Trimble:

was United Methodist. And I already had an appointment

Bishop Julius Trimble:

before I graduated, served in North Chicago for foreign for

Bishop Julius Trimble:

four and a half years of cross cultural cross racial

Bishop Julius Trimble:

appointment. But it was a wonderful, wonderful

Bishop Julius Trimble:

appointment, I felt prepared for it for that. And I didn't expect

Bishop Julius Trimble:

that seminary to teach me everything about ministry, I had

Bishop Julius Trimble:

a great mentor, I grew up in the church. And well, before I

Bishop Julius Trimble:

started seminary, I was already a youth minister in my local

Bishop Julius Trimble:

congregation. So I wasn't, I wasn't expecting the seminary to

Bishop Julius Trimble:

do it. But what I did get from Garrett, and what I do still

Bishop Julius Trimble:

expect is I had a thirst for learning when I left seminary,

Bishop Julius Trimble:

that was that had been elevated when I went to seminary. So when

Bishop Julius Trimble:

I graduated from from, from seminary, I just love reading, I

Bishop Julius Trimble:

love love libraries and love in a Barnes and Noble or any kind

Bishop Julius Trimble:

of bookstore. You know, I get some of that from my, from my

Bishop Julius Trimble:

mother, who's, who's a retired school teacher. But I still

Bishop Julius Trimble:

think there's a need for persons coming out of seminary to have a

Bishop Julius Trimble:

thirst for being lifelong learners, and also adaptive

Bishop Julius Trimble:

leaders. Because I, when I left seminary, I learned from church

Bishop Julius Trimble:

based community organizing bad and get that in seminary, but I

Bishop Julius Trimble:

had came out of a local congregation where there was a

Bishop Julius Trimble:

strong emphasis on social justice and community

Bishop Julius Trimble:

engagement. And I think graduates now need to come out

Bishop Julius Trimble:

with something that they're that they're passionate about, if

Bishop Julius Trimble:

it's preaching, let it be preaching, if it's if it's

Bishop Julius Trimble:

engaging, and if they have an entrepreneurial spirit, that

Bishop Julius Trimble:

it'd be that I think we're past the time when a person just

Bishop Julius Trimble:

comes out, say I'm just coming to kind of serve as a chaplain

Bishop Julius Trimble:

and residents of a local congregation. And, but I think

Bishop Julius Trimble:

seminaries Can, can do can can prepare people for a diverse,

Bishop Julius Trimble:

the content consistently emerging, diverse culture, and

Bishop Julius Trimble:

some of the some of the changes that are rapidly happening

Bishop Julius Trimble:

relative to technology, communications. Some of our

Bishop Julius Trimble:

younger pastors who are younger than you and I, Brett, you know,

Bishop Julius Trimble:

are our digital natives. So, my grant, my granddaughter's not

Bishop Julius Trimble:

yet three years old, is already has a little iPad. And so she,

Bishop Julius Trimble:

she's used to talking to people on the phone where you can see

Bishop Julius Trimble:

him on the phone, too. So. So it's a different kind of world.

Bishop Julius Trimble:

And I think I think seminaries have to, you know, my question

Bishop Julius Trimble:

would be, you know, what do you do now, are people still

Bishop Julius Trimble:

registering to come to the campus? Is there an expectation

Bishop Julius Trimble:

that people can do do a portion of their seminary, you know,

Bishop Julius Trimble:

virtually, or it relationships part of part of the richness

Bishop Julius Trimble:

rich experience of seminary for me was, even though even though

Bishop Julius Trimble:

I was married, was was relationships, you know,

Bishop Julius Trimble:

actually being on campus actually, engaging students and

Bishop Julius Trimble:

faculty and, and, and the community. So that's it, it's a

Bishop Julius Trimble:

different world, we are now even post COVID, I think it's still

Bishop Julius Trimble:

gonna be different.

Javier Viera:

It is, and we're trying to we're actually trying

Javier Viera:

to figure this out again, as we go along, Bishop because we, you

Javier Viera:

know, we, of course, like everyone else, we pivoted and

Javier Viera:

are now in fully remote operations, we plan to be back

Javier Viera:

in the fall. And our intention is to come back fully in person,

Javier Viera:

but to allow for students who need to, to, you know, be in

Javier Viera:

remote, to have remote access to our programs and, and for all

Javier Viera:

different manner of reasons to expand. And one of them is to

Javier Viera:

expand who has access and the ways in which we can continue to

Javier Viera:

expand our service to the church and to the world. But you know,

Javier Viera:

what I want to I want to pick up on something that you were

Javier Viera:

saying earlier, because I think that one of the things that I

Javier Viera:

think that seminary needs to cultivate in the life of our

Javier Viera:

students who go out to serve is that we need to do better job of

Javier Viera:

making sure that they have a vibrant spiritual life. And that

Javier Viera:

you know, one of the things that I think I mourn as an educator

Javier Viera:

and I've seen this, I am not alone, I've only been a Garret

Javier Viera:

for two and a half months. So this isn't a comment on Garrett,

Javier Viera:

but in other places I've been is that people come out very clear

Javier Viera:

and passionate about matters of social justice. But they can't

Javier Viera:

always relate it to how faith inspires that commitment, and

Javier Viera:

how faith informs that work. Right. And it's not always clear

Javier Viera:

how we talk about Jesus, and about the church's tradition,

Javier Viera:

and our Christian witness as part of that social justice

Javier Viera:

work. And I think we have to do a much better job with that. And

Javier Viera:

it's one of the things that, that I'm committed to, I think

Javier Viera:

that my own experience in local congregational work was that,

Javier Viera:

that there were deep there were moments of immense challenge and

Javier Viera:

spiritual dryness. But that but that there were but if I did not

Javier Viera:

have kind of this this Wellspring from which to draw

Javier Viera:

from, and people who were spiritual partners, and

Javier Viera:

conversation partners with me, I think it would have been, I

Javier Viera:

would have, I would have felt isolated, and I would have been

Javier Viera:

much more effective. And I think that we need to cultivate an

Javier Viera:

active spiritual prayer life and, and spiritual engagement in

Javier Viera:

our students in a way that we have.

Brad Miller:

Well, let's just go there personally, for just a

Brad Miller:

minute, President VIERA, what are some of the Scriptures that

Brad Miller:

inform you? Or what are some of your spiritual mentors, either

Brad Miller:

through reading or through personal mentors? Or what are

Brad Miller:

some of your spiritual practices? Yeah,

Javier Viera:

I mean, for me, you know, when I, when I say,

Javier Viera:

you know, a rich prayer life, my own my own spiritual practices,

Javier Viera:

more contemplative in nature, so I'm not one, you know, when I

Javier Viera:

get called on to pray, I do it because it's what we're called

Javier Viera:

to do. But if I if, you know, if it were really what we're doing,

Javier Viera:

we would be in moments of deep silence and listening for the,

Javier Viera:

for the moving of the spirit and listening for the ways in which

Javier Viera:

God is, is that work trying to make God's Will known to us and

Javier Viera:

discerning and trying to listen for that. So I think that my own

Javier Viera:

personal prayer, spirituality is, is much more contemplative

Javier Viera:

in nature. And I think that that's something that that we

Javier Viera:

need to do a much better job of teaching in our seminaries and

Javier Viera:

teaching our students about in terms of, you know, scriptures I

Javier Viera:

for me, I, you know, there's the text from Isaiah, which Jesus

Javier Viera:

opens, you know, in the synagogue, and says, I have

Javier Viera:

come, you know, the Spirit of the Lord is upon me, he has, you

Javier Viera:

know, empowered me to preach good news to the poor release to

Javier Viera:

the captives recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty,

Javier Viera:

those who are oppressed, and to declare that the time has come

Javier Viera:

when God will save God's people. That is, for me, what I think

Javier Viera:

ministry is all about, and what we're called to. And that's what

Javier Viera:

that's the scripture that I returned to over and over and

Javier Viera:

over again.

Bishop Julius Trimble:

betray is interesting. It's interesting, I

Bishop Julius Trimble:

think Mike slaughter in one of his books says, that if the good

Bishop Julius Trimble:

the guy, good news, is not good news to the poor, it's not good

Bishop Julius Trimble:

news at all. It is right. So that text that you that you that

Bishop Julius Trimble:

Jesus quotes from, from Isaiah is so so powerful. And so, so,

Bishop Julius Trimble:

so necessary, one of the books that kind of grant gave me

Bishop Julius Trimble:

wokeness, before that was a word, I guess, was sometime ago

Bishop Julius Trimble:

when it first came out the pedagogy of the oppressed by

Bishop Julius Trimble:

Paulo Freire. And I know that you're one of your experts, your

Bishop Julius Trimble:

maybe your PhD might have been part of that as well, my

Bishop Julius Trimble:

dissertation. But good, good idea. I can finally finally ask,

Bishop Julius Trimble:

just one of the things that wasn't there wasn't aware of

Bishop Julius Trimble:

that. this past Sunday was the anniversary of the Selma, Selma

Bishop Julius Trimble:

March. And the first one that john lewis was not part of

Bishop Julius Trimble:

congressman john lewis now now gone on to heaven. But one of

Bishop Julius Trimble:

the things I know people from that from that time period, say

Bishop Julius Trimble:

what was often missing missing was what fear talks about is

Bishop Julius Trimble:

praxis. This whole notion that we're engaged in like I'm These

Bishop Julius Trimble:

are my words. Now, the whole notion we're engaged in life and

Bishop Julius Trimble:

ministry and doing and being in there often is not any period of

Bishop Julius Trimble:

reflecting on that. How am I here is those words which were

Bishop Julius Trimble:

written some time ago, who have have agency today, President

Bishop Julius Trimble:

Vieira de

Javier Viera:

I think, you know, one of the things that that

Javier Viera:

people who read frary often don't realize is how deeply

Javier Viera:

committed a committed man of faith he was and how much the

Javier Viera:

churches faith informed his own his own thinking and practice.

Javier Viera:

And, and I guess you know, for me faries whole notion of

Javier Viera:

constantly Sassoon right of of, of critical awareness or

Javier Viera:

consciousness raising, or awakening, if you will, it's

Javier Viera:

really difficult word to translate into English. But it's

Javier Viera:

that it's becoming aware of what actually is that what is around

Javier Viera:

us what is and that and that we have an agency in in the world,

Javier Viera:

right. And so often, in a part of the people that he worked

Javier Viera:

with, felt that they had no agency. And part of his work was

Javier Viera:

to through literacy campaigns was to, was to inspire them a

Javier Viera:

sense of, of how they could become their own advocates, how

Javier Viera:

they could create their own future, and how they could

Javier Viera:

challenge the systems of oppression that kept them in

Javier Viera:

that mindset, that we have no agency, we have no way to create

Javier Viera:

a different reality for themselves. I think that's the

Javier Viera:

work of the church, right? Is is a spiritual awakening, that that

Javier Viera:

brings transformation to local communities and to local lives

Javier Viera:

and opens us up to what the Spirit is doing in the world. To

Javier Viera:

us, you know, to use biblical language, bringing about the

Javier Viera:

kingdom of God amongst us, right, that's the work of the

Javier Viera:

church. And so it's in that sense that I understand the work

Javier Viera:

of fairy being very relevant, it's still very much alive

Javier Viera:

today. Thank you.

Brad Miller:

Yet we and we have to apply this type of thinking

Brad Miller:

to a broken world right now. And we have a broken world in many

Brad Miller:

ways. We have a broken church, you know, we have a, the

Brad Miller:

challenges of what's going on politically and socially, social

Brad Miller:

economically, the last year or so the pandemic 500,000, dead,

Brad Miller:

all is going on. And then we have C in our beloved United

Brad Miller:

Methodist Church, we have our challenges and our schisms. So I

Brad Miller:

just want to get started. When I asked you president Vieira, what

Brad Miller:

is the state of seminary education as it applies to the

Brad Miller:

brokenness of our world in our church right

Javier Viera:

now. Actually, this is, this is one of the

Javier Viera:

places where I think theological education is a gift to the

Javier Viera:

church, because it's what you have just described, I think, is

Javier Viera:

what we end up engaging in more than anything is in dialogue

Javier Viera:

and, and in critical analysis of, of the brokenness of the

Javier Viera:

world and wanting to be a part of, of the healing and the

Javier Viera:

restoration, that the church can and should be leading in that

Javier Viera:

regard. And so I think that, you know, in theological issues in

Javier Viera:

theological seminaries, I think this is a regular conversation.

Javier Viera:

And what I think I have found is, you know, at least in, you

Javier Viera:

know, in my previous setting, when alumni would, would come

Javier Viera:

back and engage re engage in this sort of reflection and

Javier Viera:

critical conversation, they would say, this is what we miss

Javier Viera:

this is our soul is starved for this kind of engagement. And

Javier Viera:

this is a way that I think the seminaries need to adapt Bishop

Javier Viera:

back to your earlier point is, is in providing that kind of

Javier Viera:

continued resource and engagement for our alums where

Javier Viera:

they are, and in some ways, helping them and empowering

Javier Viera:

them, equipping them to continue to do that kind of work, that

Javier Viera:

kind of critical reflection in their congregational settings.

Javier Viera:

So that that work can begin to kind of take root and emerge

Javier Viera:

from within their congregations and the congregational life,

Brad Miller:

restoration and reconciliation, to be a force

Brad Miller:

for that it

Bishop Julius Trimble:

just such a need, I

Brad Miller:

think and also the spiritual renewal aspects, I

Brad Miller:

just think, you know, there is a darkness and of dryness and a

Brad Miller:

challenge that is out there. That is needs to be addressed

Brad Miller:

through the church in one way and other women, clergy among

Brad Miller:

the people, and we got challenging, challenging times

Brad Miller:

here.

Javier Viera:

I think, you know, early on, and Bishop you, you

Javier Viera:

can answer this better than I can to see if this is sustained.

Javier Viera:

But early on, when the pandemic hit, it was, it was really

Javier Viera:

amazing to watch the statistics of how churches now going

Javier Viera:

online, we're seeing more people engaged in their liturgical

Javier Viera:

worship life than they were when the only option was to be there

Javier Viera:

in person. Right. And to me that spoke of, of something that

Javier Viera:

actually is very hopeful for us is that there actually is a

Javier Viera:

spiritual hunger and a spiritual longing, that we haven't been

Javier Viera:

incredibly effective at address. But that the this pandemic gave

Javier Viera:

us an opportunity to kind of rethink, and and to re engage.

Javier Viera:

And I'm not saying that I don't know whether that kind of

Javier Viera:

initial response, and engagement has been sustained over the long

Javier Viera:

haul. But what it does speak to is an opportunity that we have

Javier Viera:

to kind of think about how to how to how to capture and how to

Javier Viera:

sustain.

Bishop Julius Trimble:

And give

Brad Miller:

and give the tools and help be the process be the

Brad Miller:

think tank, as it were, they'll apply the tools that can be

Brad Miller:

applied there in the local church setting and other ways as

Brad Miller:

well, because there's so many, Yes, that's true, what you said,

Brad Miller:

and, you know, I'm involved with technology here and so on, I

Brad Miller:

know that it's such an important tool. And yet, there are many

Brad Miller:

churches that are kind of struggling with that, you know,

Brad Miller:

there are many pastors who aren't up to speed on all all

Brad Miller:

the way in so when you had this gap of

Javier Viera:

congregations and congregations who are resistant

Javier Viera:

to it, absolutely,

Brad Miller:

absolutely, and individuals, and so on, and so

Brad Miller:

forth. So you have, some people are embracing that, you know,

Brad Miller:

the online worship and so on. And so people who struggle with

Brad Miller:

it, and some people just can't get it can't get do it. And so

Brad Miller:

we're gonna have to rebuild some things and just reimagine some

Brad Miller:

things, how we do church. And I believe the seminaries have to

Brad Miller:

be in the forefront of that it has to be the cutting edge, the

Brad Miller:

research the r&d of the church, as it were research and

Brad Miller:

development and that type of thing. So

Javier Viera:

yeah, this is actually a conversation, even

Javier Viera:

amongst our liturgical studies, folks, that, that that have that

Javier Viera:

has come up in conversation here, because, you know, one of

Javier Viera:

the things that we realize is that it's not that the work is

Javier Viera:

not simply to broadcast what we do in the sanctuary on a Sunday

Javier Viera:

morning. And that communicates in the same way. It's a

Javier Viera:

different medium, right. And so we have to think of these as

Javier Viera:

different experiences, different opportunities, and we have to

Javier Viera:

cultivate those experiences to reach different audiences. And

Javier Viera:

and that's a lot of work and our pastors that are we're really

Javier Viera:

doing this and engaging as well. They're exhausted. And you know,

Javier Viera:

our faculty, we hear I hear it from they're exhausted in doing

Javier Viera:

this work, because it's not the way that we've gone about it.

Javier Viera:

It's not sustainable. And we have to figure out a way that we

Javier Viera:

can do this well, but that we can do it in a way that's

Javier Viera:

sustainable, and yet addresses the need.

Brad Miller:

And it was bring to life and in vigor where there

Brad Miller:

was just the challenges of such a time as this patient looked

Brad Miller:

like you're chomping at the bit to ask another question here.

Bishop Julius Trimble:

I was thinking, thinking president

Bishop Julius Trimble:

Vieira, what about persons? Who are the people that should think

Bishop Julius Trimble:

about coming to a school like Garrett, we often I mean, when I

Bishop Julius Trimble:

went to seminary, it was because I felt a call to ministry. My

Bishop Julius Trimble:

pastor went to Garrett and I just went to seminary, but but

Bishop Julius Trimble:

there may be people who were who are contemplating finishing

Bishop Julius Trimble:

undergraduate, and never have thought that seminary seminaries

Bishop Julius Trimble:

graduate school as a place is just for people who've already

Bishop Julius Trimble:

felt a clarion call for for the local church ministry. What if

Bishop Julius Trimble:

you have a passion for law or a passion for politics? Well, this

Bishop Julius Trimble:

is Pastor for chaplaincy. Yeah,

Javier Viera:

Bishop this question because I think that

Javier Viera:

this is one of the I mean, here, if you if you let me just kind

Javier Viera:

of tout Garrett for just a second. This is one of the great

Javier Viera:

ways in which I think carat can can be a gift to the church writ

Javier Viera:

large, not just to pastoral ministry, cert, 56% of our

Javier Viera:

students graduate and go into pastoral or congregational

Javier Viera:

leadership of some form, right. But that leaves a significant

Javier Viera:

portion who go to do something else. And in part because of

Javier Viera:

where we're located on the campus of Northwestern, we have

Javier Viera:

the opportunity for people to kind of explore, you know,

Javier Viera:

people who were writers, for example, and want to, you know,

Javier Viera:

think of their work and their ministry through writing can can

Javier Viera:

do programs with the Graduate School of you know, of

Javier Viera:

journalism at Northwestern, or with the grant, you know, with

Javier Viera:

social work with an our partnership with Loyola, or, you

Javier Viera:

know, we have programs with, you know, the Kellogg School of

Javier Viera:

Business, people who see themselves as wanting to go into

Javier Viera:

business but to who want their work to be informed with a

Javier Viera:

moral, ethical theological lens, right. And we need people in

Javier Viera:

business with that kind of formation and those kinds of

Javier Viera:

commitments. So I think that that Garrett is a place where

Javier Viera:

you can come and, and have a sense of Christian vocation, and

Javier Viera:

and and be called into the world with that sense of Christian

Javier Viera:

vocation in a broad way, that can in fact and for many means

Javier Viera:

congregational ministry. But it can be expressed in a lot of

Javier Viera:

different ways people who go into movement leadership, people

Javier Viera:

who go into organizational leadership, people who are, you

Javier Viera:

know, committed to, you know, education as a, as a as a

Javier Viera:

pathway for freedom right and, and see their work as being

Javier Viera:

theologically informed.

Brad Miller:

Even politics, as you mentioned earlier in

Javier Viera:

politics. That's exactly

Brad Miller:

right public servants. One of the things that

Brad Miller:

I have heard at the term for seminary is to become a servite.

Brad Miller:

seminary. And I love that imagery. And I'd like you to

Brad Miller:

speak to that for just submitted in terms of this. You've already

Brad Miller:

touched on it here. It's my understanding, I'm a parent of

Brad Miller:

220 somethings and sons who love public service, but they've kind

Brad Miller:

of fallen out of favor in the church because they see a lot of

Brad Miller:

issues in the church. And a lot of young adults feel that way

Brad Miller:

believe they believe in serving the greater good. But they are

Brad Miller:

looking at different avenues to do with 10. I'd like for you to

Brad Miller:

speak to this sensibility of servant Seminary in terms of how

Brad Miller:

it can be attractive to folks who want to serve a greater

Brad Miller:

good, but somehow I've seen the church is maybe just one of

Brad Miller:

several options. But can you speak to this area of serving

Brad Miller:

seminary?

Javier Viera:

Yeah, this is, you know, it's interesting. This is

Javier Viera:

a conversation I was having with my wife recently, because, you

Javier Viera:

know, we were talking about carrot as a Graduate School of

Javier Viera:

Theology. And she was pushing me on but what does that mean? What

Javier Viera:

does that actually mean? And the more and more I spoke about it,

Javier Viera:

the more I realized that, yes, we're preparing people,

Javier Viera:

theologically, right, giving them a sound, theological

Javier Viera:

foundation to everything they do. But in many ways, Garrett is

Javier Viera:

also a graduate school. It's a Graduate School of Theology, but

Javier Viera:

it's also a Graduate School of leadership, and of public

Javier Viera:

service, right. And we're sending people out into the

Javier Viera:

world in those capacities. You know, the notion of a servant

Javier Viera:

seminary is something that my predecessor, Dr. Pauline Rector,

Javier Viera:

that she that was that was really her sensibility about

Javier Viera:

what the seminary should be. And it was about cultivating a kind

Javier Viera:

of leadership that saw itself as going into the world primarily

Javier Viera:

to serve. Right, and that this notion of, of servanthood, that

Javier Viera:

is so central, to Jesus own ministry, and Jesus calling of

Javier Viera:

his disciples would be embodied and expressed in the world

Javier Viera:

through our graduates that, that, that that if we were doing

Javier Viera:

our work well at Garrett, that people would graduate from here,

Javier Viera:

knowing that first and foremost, they go into the world to serve

Javier Viera:

and to serve as servants, right, I come into this world not to be

Javier Viera:

served, but to serve. And it's that sensibility that I think

Javier Viera:

that we're trying to, to form and to inspire in our students.

Brad Miller:

Appreciate that so much. We need to draw this to

Brad Miller:

close in just a moment or two here. But I wanted to see if

Brad Miller:

Bishop if you had any comments or closing thoughts for for

Brad Miller:

president VR or anything else you want to share?

Bishop Julius Trimble:

Well, I I'm encouraged by by the

Bishop Julius Trimble:

leadership of President Vrn. And the opportunity. I know a lot of

Bishop Julius Trimble:

people say that we're in liminal space, and we have to, to

Bishop Julius Trimble:

rediscover Lamentations and lamenting and and recognize that

Bishop Julius Trimble:

we can't go back to the way things were and but I do also

Bishop Julius Trimble:

think that we are in a tremendous space of opportunity

Bishop Julius Trimble:

for for proclaiming the gospel. I think there's, I've said this

Bishop Julius Trimble:

here in Indiana, that I think there's going to be a revival, I

Bishop Julius Trimble:

think a revival is already underway. And when we come out

Bishop Julius Trimble:

of COVID, there's got to be a tremendous need for for

Bishop Julius Trimble:

enthusiastic followers of Jesus Christ, to create wide doors and

Bishop Julius Trimble:

wide open windows for people to participate in God's movement.

Bishop Julius Trimble:

And I think the seminary I'm inspired by Pope Francis in a

Bishop Julius Trimble:

lot of ways. He here earlier on said that the church should give

Bishop Julius Trimble:

itself away. And so maybe the seminary in that same sense, as

Bishop Julius Trimble:

you know, we often think of institution is how do we sustain

Bishop Julius Trimble:

institutions? How do we protect institutions, but what if we see

Bishop Julius Trimble:

of sales as a church and as seminaries is, is how do we give

Bishop Julius Trimble:

ourselves literally give our give ourselves away? I think

Bishop Julius Trimble:

this is a, obviously a challenging time for leadership,

Bishop Julius Trimble:

but also a great opportunity to be a harbinger of hope. And

Bishop Julius Trimble:

also, this is a good opportunity for some experimentation. And we

Bishop Julius Trimble:

often talk about risk taking but then we punish people when they

Bishop Julius Trimble:

take risk. So I think We can find the courage and where

Bishop Julius Trimble:

without actual actually engage in some innovation that will

Bishop Julius Trimble:

happen not only in the church but also in the seminary. So I

Bishop Julius Trimble:

look forward to being so supportive of, of your

Bishop Julius Trimble:

leadership. And, and here it is as we, as we go forward into the

Bishop Julius Trimble:

future. Awesome.

Javier Viera:

May Oh, sorry.

Brad Miller:

So I just want to give you the last word president

Brad Miller:

Vieira about what you ever will you want to share in any signs

Brad Miller:

of hope for the future?

Javier Viera:

Yeah, I want to say Bishop, if I may, I should

Javier Viera:

not we should also recognize that, yes, we're living in in

Javier Viera:

liminal times and in difficult times for the church. But But

Javier Viera:

you know, you are in a in a very unique position in which the

Javier Viera:

demands on your leadership are extreme to lead wisely, to lead

Javier Viera:

carefully to lead expansively. And I want you to know that the

Javier Viera:

Garret is here, also to support your ministry and the Ministry

Javier Viera:

of your colleagues and Episcopal leadership and the ministry of

Javier Viera:

the people of the Indiana annual conference. We're committed to

Javier Viera:

that. And we will be in regular prayer for you and the people of

Javier Viera:

Indiana. And I hope that we might find ways to bring renewal

Javier Viera:

and and innovation to the church, because I think more

Javier Viera:

than ever, the church's ministry matters for real people and in

Javier Viera:

their lives in a deep and profound way. And I want to be a

Javier Viera:

part of, of the work that you and the people of Indiana are

Javier Viera:

unfolding there, I wouldn't be in partnership with you. And so

Javier Viera:

I look forward to that and no of our prayers and support for all

Javier Viera:

of you.

Brad Miller:

But that's an that's an awesome place for us

Brad Miller:

to bring our conversation to close a place of hope and

Brad Miller:

partnership, and relationships and encouragement moving forward

Brad Miller:

for such a time as this. So we appreciate the leadership of our

Brad Miller:

president Harvey Vieira of Garrett evangelical Theological

Brad Miller:

Seminary, and of Bishop Julius tremble at Indiana air United

Brad Miller:

Methodist Church, who have been our tremendous guests of

Brad Miller:

encouragement here today on the United Methodist people podcast

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About the Podcast

The United Methodist People Podcast
The United Methodist People Podcast is about the pastors, people, ministries of the United Methodist Church as the church navigates anxious times
The United Methodist People Podcast is all about the pastors, people, ministries, and work of the United Methodist Church. The focus is telling the stories which help the United Methodist Church navigate anxious times and support the mission of Making Disciples of Jesus Christ for the Transformation of The World. The United Methodist Podcast also will address issues and matters which challenge the church and provide a forum for constructive discourse to take place over matters regarding the polity and practice of the United Methodist Church.
The United Methodist Podcast is a place for opinion and conversation among persons who care about the health and vitality of the United Methodist Church and is not in any way officially sanctioned by any part of the United Methodist Church.

About your host

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Dr. Brad Miller

I have 40 years of experience in Christian ministry and hold a Doctoral degree in life transformation strategic planning. I am the publisher of the Cancer and Comedy Podcast: Helping Cancer Impacted People to Heal with Hope and Humor