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Published on:

26th Apr 2021

45. How to Make a Comeback after a Fall with Rev. Dr. Roger Ross author of “Comeback: Returning to the Life You Were Made For”

Episode 45 of The United Methodist People Podcast, with Rev. Dr. Brad Miller, features a conversation with Rev. Dr. Roger about his book “Comeback: Returning to the Life You Were Made For”

Roger is the Director of Church Excellence in the Missouri Annual Conference of The United Methodist Church and former pastor and church planter in Illinois. 

In this conversation, Brad and Ross talk about the factors which lead to the disaster of a fall be it personal or something out of our control like a worldwide pandemic or dissension in the church and respond to the fall in such a way as to find a way to come back better than ever.

Brad and Ross discuss five elements crucial to having a comeback and in particular, he advocates five transforming practices which when applied to your life can give you a practical and doing pathway to find your way to come back after a fall.

This conversation is a great foundation for using the book and the accompanying workbook to apply to your personal life and to teach in small group settings in the local church.

The book “Comeback: Returning to the Life You Were Made For”

 is available at Cokesbury, Amazon, and is published by Abingdon Press.

https://www.cokesbury.com/Come-Back-2?refq=roger%20ross

Roger Ross blogs a www.rogerross.online and is available for speaking, coaching, and consulting.

The United Methodist People Podcast is published by Rev. Dr. Brad Miller with the purpose of strengthening the connection in The United Methodist Church through conversation and commentary.

Transcript
Brad Miller:

Reverend Dr. Roger Ross, who is an author of a

Brad Miller:

couple of books. A few years ago, he had meet the good

Brad Miller:

people, which describes people in the church. And today we're

Brad Miller:

going to be talking with him about his new book called

Brad Miller:

comeback, and he'll get into the details of that book in a

Brad Miller:

minute. Roger is a director of congregational excellence, in

Brad Miller:

Missouri annual conference, a United Methodist Church

Brad Miller:

responsibility with revitalization, revitalizing

Brad Miller:

congregations in Missouri, but he's also a pastor in Illinois,

Brad Miller:

and a former church planner, and my good personal friend, Roger,

Brad Miller:

welcome to United Methodist people podcast.

Roger Ross:

Thanks, Brad is great to be a part of this

Roger Ross:

again.

Brad Miller:

Awesome, awesome, my friend. Well, you I've been a

Brad Miller:

person who has been involved with the life of the church for

Brad Miller:

some time and in different ways and helping get things

Brad Miller:

responding to the needs of the church. And one of the needs of

Brad Miller:

the church is helping people to understand their personal

Brad Miller:

relationship to God and their personal relationship to the

Brad Miller:

church, and to deal with things that are happening in their

Brad Miller:

life. And it just seems to me that you've been doing a lot of

Brad Miller:

them. But we're going to talk today about this new book you

Brad Miller:

have come out that's just come out called the comeback. So tell

Brad Miller:

me, why did you write come back?

Roger Ross:

I gotta be honest with you, Brad. It really caught

Roger Ross:

me off guard. In January, actually. Now in July of 2019. I

Roger Ross:

went on a Friday, silent prayer retreats. And about three days

Roger Ross:

in, God whispered something. There was no audible voice, just

Roger Ross:

an impression, write about comebacks. And instantly, I knew

Roger Ross:

that that was not because I was an expert. But because I needed

Roger Ross:

one. I was on that retreat, because I had had some hard

Roger Ross:

falls in my own life. And even though by our appearances, it

Roger Ross:

may have looked as if I'd recovered. During that time

Roger Ross:

away, I realized how much further I had to go. So just as

Roger Ross:

a spiritual exercise, I took about an hour and jotted down a

Roger Ross:

few ideas on a legal pad, but how to come back. Now I wanted

Roger Ross:

to figure out what that whole journey might look like,

Roger Ross:

especially for my own sake. But the more I thought about it, I

Roger Ross:

was drawn to my favorite passage in the Bible, which is Jesus

Roger Ross:

story of the prodigal son, because that's an epic comeback.

Roger Ross:

And that was good. You know, I kind of had the initial

Roger Ross:

framework of the journey and left there went on to other

Roger Ross:

things. But it didn't leave me. You know, about a month after

Roger Ross:

the retreat, I took out that legal pad, reviewed a few things

Roger Ross:

I'd written made some changes, put it away again, month later.

Roger Ross:

Now since September, did same thing took it out, played with a

Roger Ross:

little bit. At this point, I began to realize, you know,

Roger Ross:

this, this could be a book. But I also realized at this rate, it

Roger Ross:

could take me 10 years to write it, you know,

Brad Miller:

writing so goes that way, I know those for me,

Brad Miller:

sometimes you're lucky. You get that initial burst in it. Oh, my

Brad Miller:

gosh, he drags on. So

Roger Ross:

absolutely. So I I had a little come to Jesus

Roger Ross:

moment. Right, then actually, it's like, well, if I'm gonna

Roger Ross:

take this command that I heard on that retreat seriously, I'm

Roger Ross:

going to have to talk to somebody about this. And I'm not

Roger Ross:

kidding, you register. Like within days of that little

Roger Ross:

moment. My editor of the former book at Abington, Connie Stella,

Roger Ross:

sent me an email I hadn't heard from Connie in over two years.

Roger Ross:

And that was about Thursday, Thursday afternoon about 430.

Roger Ross:

And I just took that as a sign. So by 525, I replied to her to

Roger Ross:

say that I wasn't going to be at the event that she was emailing

Roger Ross:

me about so that we could maybe catch up. But I did have this

Roger Ross:

idea for a new book. And I threw it out to her. I mean, all five

Roger Ross:

paragraphs, short paragraphs, and I'm thinking she is never

Roger Ross:

going to go for this. I mean, this this was not an elevator

Roger Ross:

pitch. This was like a revolving door pitch. I mean, it was in

Roger Ross:

and out, boom, just scalp. And tomorrow, almost

Brad Miller:

a reaction type of thing. It sounds like,

Roger Ross:

yeah, yeah. And so to Mike will total surprise. She

Roger Ross:

liked it. And by October, I was writing the book.

Unknown:

Here you go, man.

Roger Ross:

So I couldn't plan that really. And it was so

Roger Ross:

different from my first experience of trying to get a

Roger Ross:

book published. I mean, this was just like, falling off a lawn. I

Roger Ross:

thought maybe somebody had drugged her. I did. I did. I

Roger Ross:

didn't know how all that could have happened. So but I realized

Roger Ross:

that, you know if, if I needed this, maybe they're reasons I

Roger Ross:

don't understand that God must really want me to write about

Roger Ross:

comebacks.

Brad Miller:

You think that you mentioned how you had your own

Brad Miller:

issues or setbacks and other have a comeback. You got to have

Brad Miller:

a setback? Do you think that the setbacks that you experience are

Brad Miller:

resonate with the setbacks that other people are experiencing,

Brad Miller:

especially as we are dealing with the ramifications of the

Brad Miller:

pandemic, which we've been experiencing? And all the things

Brad Miller:

come around with ads? Are there some ways that your experience

Brad Miller:

can resonate with the experiences of other people but

Brad Miller:

having?

Roger Ross:

Yeah, I really think so. Because that's just the

Roger Ross:

nature of life. I mean, one night, I remember a number of

Roger Ross:

years ago, when our son was young, we read a little league

Roger Ross:

baseball game and, and he was in the batter's box, and they had a

Roger Ross:

full count, you know, three balls, two strikes. And as we

Roger Ross:

waited breathlessly, for that next pitch, his young friend was

Roger Ross:

sitting next to me said, Well, one thing's for sure. Something

Roger Ross:

is gonna happen.

Brad Miller:

Well, there you go.

Roger Ross:

Yeah. And my wife and I have laughed about that

Roger Ross:

for years ever since, you know, you don't have to live very long

Roger Ross:

to know that something is gonna happen in your life. Right? And

Roger Ross:

oftentimes, those are good things. Sure, right. I mean, you

Roger Ross:

can go through stretches a life that things are going so well,

Roger Ross:

you begin to think it's always gonna be like that. But sooner

Roger Ross:

or later, a fall occurs. And that may be due to forces beyond

Roger Ross:

our control, like you were talking about it is a pandemic,

Roger Ross:

disease, racism, a natural disaster? Or it could be because

Roger Ross:

of missteps of our own making. Yes. Either way, when something

Roger Ross:

like that happens when a fall comes, we have a choice. Are we

Roger Ross:

going to allow that fall to define and fetus? Are we going

Roger Ross:

to choose to dig deeper ignite hole and mount a comeback? Yes,

Brad Miller:

I think add adversity is a given in my

Brad Miller:

research and my thinking and the book, I'm writing it, I kind of

Brad Miller:

break it down into five DS, which are depression, and debt

Brad Miller:

as an financial issues, divorce as a relationship, issues of

Brad Miller:

disease, like the pandemic, things like that. And then

Brad Miller:

death, either your own impending death or death of a loved one,

Brad Miller:

those one form or another, those all happen to all of us, but how

Brad Miller:

we deal with it makes all the difference in you had something,

Brad Miller:

some things happen to you that, that I'll that you chose to

Brad Miller:

process by going on a five day retreat, and started to write a

Brad Miller:

book. So you took some action. Tell me a bit about the actions

Brad Miller:

that you think that some people get stuck, you know, when

Brad Miller:

adversity ism, they get stuck, and you took some action? So

Brad Miller:

tell me about the process about what you are advocating that

Brad Miller:

maybe you did or others do to speak to the fall to what are

Brad Miller:

you going to do about it now?

Roger Ross:

Yeah, that's that was what was helpful about

Roger Ross:

looking into the scriptures, in particular into the prodigal son

Roger Ross:

story. And just looking at it from the perspective of someone

Roger Ross:

who had a fall now with regard to the prodigal son, that was a

Roger Ross:

fall of his own making. Yes, you know, but that's what, that's

Roger Ross:

what's common to all of humanity, that, as I mentioned,

Roger Ross:

moment ago, sooner or later, everybody's going to have a

Roger Ross:

fall. So then the only question is, what are you going to do as

Roger Ross:

a result, so that really the first, the first step in a

Roger Ross:

comeback journey is you have a fall. And you know what, this is

Roger Ross:

the one that nobody likes, nobody wants, but it's just

Roger Ross:

going to come sooner or later. And we have to figure out what

Roger Ross:

we're going to do as a result. The other steps on that journey

Brad Miller:

just to hit there just for a second, we'll go too

Brad Miller:

far. And some people have already kind of prepare

Brad Miller:

themselves. It says that yeah, that's the life reality. But

Brad Miller:

some people when they have a fall, he hits him so hard. It is

Brad Miller:

a total a complete shock, isn't it? It just takes them off to

Brad Miller:

the wheels of memory.

Roger Ross:

Oh, absolutely. You know, it's it's, it's like

Roger Ross:

following the wrong way and having the breath knocked out.

Roger Ross:

He you know, he's when you're gasping for breath. And, and you

Roger Ross:

don't know why all of a sudden, you can't breathe when just a

Roger Ross:

few seconds ago, you could. It's it's a very painful and

Roger Ross:

disorienting experience. And in fact, what what I decided to do

Roger Ross:

in the book was not just talk about the steps that a person

Roger Ross:

would take after they have a fall, but also put some kind of

Roger Ross:

transforming practice, in connection with each of the

Roger Ross:

steps to help people to know what to do when that happens. So

Roger Ross:

when when you have a fall and it just knocks the breath right

Roger Ross:

out. You don't know what to do next. And you're disoriented,

Roger Ross:

you're confused. You have a myriad of different emotions.

Roger Ross:

The the transforming practice of that first step is simply to

Roger Ross:

listen to your emotions. There's all kinds of things that are

Roger Ross:

going on inside of you. And oftentimes, they're kind of a

Roger Ross:

jumbled mixed up mess. But if you don't spend some time just

Roger Ross:

quietly listening to your emotions, they're going to take

Roger Ross:

you on a ride that you don't want to go.

Brad Miller:

Well, it's very interesting that you say that,

Brad Miller:

because I've been reading a lot of stuff recently about things

Brad Miller:

like flow and about focus, and how there's so many distractions

Brad Miller:

in the world right now, that tend to help us get into denial

Brad Miller:

of dealing with feelings and dealing with this stuff. And a

Brad Miller:

lot of people try to get them to jump into all these

Brad Miller:

distractions. And what you're saying is you got the action

Brad Miller:

step, the act the the poor point of application is to pay

Brad Miller:

attention and listen, not tonight.

Roger Ross:

Yeah, that's, that's really the transforming

Roger Ross:

practice. One of the things I discovered as I was looking at

Roger Ross:

these different comeback steps is that there are ancient

Roger Ross:

practices that have been a part of the Christian faith, and in

Roger Ross:

some cases, some other forms of faith, for centuries, that

Roger Ross:

people have put into practice to help them to be able to deal

Roger Ross:

with these inevitable falls that are coming our way. And one of

Roger Ross:

them, that is fair, I mean, it's all through the Scriptures.

Roger Ross:

Jesus is a classic example of someone who was very attuned to

Roger Ross:

very aware of his feelings, and able to express them

Roger Ross:

appropriately in the moment. And frankly, most of us are not like

Roger Ross:

that. Most of us are unaware of what we're feeling at any given

Roger Ross:

time. And we do our best to numb our emotions to try to escape

Roger Ross:

the pain, or just ignore them for fear that they might slow us

Roger Ross:

down.

Brad Miller:

And that is where we have to then continue to

Brad Miller:

apply these other processes that you have mentioned, or the

Brad Miller:

practices of connecting to other people, mentors, and such who

Brad Miller:

can help us and tell us what about maybe some of the things

Brad Miller:

you did, or maybe you advocate in terms of connecting to guides

Brad Miller:

or other people who can speak into our life?

Roger Ross:

Yeah, so after the fall, really, the next step is

Roger Ross:

to kind of come to yourself, that's the thing that you see in

Roger Ross:

the prodigal son story. I mean, he, you know, he was off

Roger Ross:

marching to his own drum beat, and he was on a great journey of

Roger Ross:

self discovery. And then all of a sudden, he realized, Oh, my

Roger Ross:

gosh, I've gotten myself into a much deeper water than I can get

Roger Ross:

out. And he had a little, which call it come to Jesus moments

Roger Ross:

where he came to himself and realized, you know, what, I, I'm

Roger Ross:

in deep doo doo here, and I don't know what to do next. I

Roger Ross:

just know that I can't stay where I am. You know, it's what

Roger Ross:

some people talk about with regard to hitting bottom. Yes,

Roger Ross:

you know, and, and once that happens, you have to make kind

Roger Ross:

of a deep internal decision, like I'm not staying here, I

Roger Ross:

refuse to wallow in this amount, emotional slop for the rest of

Roger Ross:

my life. I was made for more than this. And, and just

Roger Ross:

grasping that one truth sets you on a new course. So the

Roger Ross:

transforming practice for that is simply to engage in solitude

Roger Ross:

and stillness. You know, it's, it's taking time to be alone

Roger Ross:

with God, because one of the things that we are exceptionally

Roger Ross:

good at in American life, American culture is doing. We

Roger Ross:

are not good at being. And I'm like the chief center with all

Roger Ross:

this. I mean, I've I've realized that in my own life, and one of

Roger Ross:

the one of the truths that I've been embracing in recent years,

Roger Ross:

is that beam proceeds doing. And if you get that out of water,

Roger Ross:

then you're very unlikely to have the kind of self awareness

Roger Ross:

necessary to take the steps that will bring you back to the life

Roger Ross:

you

Brad Miller:

were meant for. That's awesome. That's awesome.

Brad Miller:

And then the, but it's interesting, you know, you've

Brad Miller:

kind of got some self reflection there about what you do or don't

Brad Miller:

do. And yet, what seems to be really transformative to you was

Brad Miller:

taking that five day Silent Retreat, which would be just out

Brad Miller:

of the realm of question for so many people. And so what are

Brad Miller:

some things that you think people can do they need to quiet

Brad Miller:

but what are some of the practices? What are some of the

Brad Miller:

disciplines that people can apply their lives in a regular

Brad Miller:

basis? That is a doable thing that that they can do, or maybe

Brad Miller:

people or resources that they can connect up with?

Roger Ross:

Yeah, so with regard to to solitude and stillness, we

Roger Ross:

solitude is simply being alone via taking kind of taking

Roger Ross:

yourself away from others and away from other distractions so

Roger Ross:

you can be alone with God and Jesus practices all through the

Roger Ross:

Scriptures and you You see other great leaders of faith. Now

Roger Ross:

through the Scriptures that do this as well, I mean, politics

Roger Ross:

off on a journey for like three years all by himself. I mean,

Roger Ross:

it's just, I mean, they're they're kind of extreme

Roger Ross:

examples, in some cases. I mean, Jesus starts out as ministry by

Roger Ross:

going on a 40 day, not just fast, but a journey by himself

Roger Ross:

out into the wilderness, which, you know, here's the desert,

Roger Ross:

yes. And not, not surprisingly, he gets tempted by the devil

Roger Ross:

during that time. So all kinds of spiritual things happen,

Roger Ross:

sometimes good, sometimes not so good. When you put yourself in

Roger Ross:

position where you are in solitude and stillness, you

Roger Ross:

know, silence before the Lord. Now, you don't I mean, those are

Roger Ross:

kind of extreme examples. And I don't recommend anyone to start

Roger Ross:

out that way. You know, occasional joggers, don't go out

Roger Ross:

and run marathons, it's not a good idea. But what anyone can

Roger Ross:

do is take their phone or the timer that's on their watch,

Roger Ross:

instead of pretend minutes, and go in a room by themselves

Roger Ross:

without any other distractions, and be alone with God. That is a

Roger Ross:

powerful discipline, just 10 minutes. And, and if you're like

Roger Ross:

me, naturally, what people are going to experience is they'll

Roger Ross:

start having all kinds of distractions hit their minds,

Roger Ross:

you know, all the things that they have to do that day, people

Roger Ross:

need to call emails they need to send on and on. But one of the

Roger Ross:

things I found to be really helpful in those times for

Roger Ross:

solitude is just pick a word, or a phrase, and say it over and

Roger Ross:

over silently to yourself, like other, or father, or Jesus, or I

Roger Ross:

received your grace, or, or the one on one of them I use today

Roger Ross:

was, have mercy on me, have mercy on me. And mercy on, you

Roger Ross:

say that same little phrase or word over and over again, just

Roger Ross:

as a way to focus your mind and heart so that you can call them

Roger Ross:

and still yourself on the inside, to be able to be present

Roger Ross:

to the presence?

Brad Miller:

I think one of the things that if what you're

Brad Miller:

seeing there, Roger, is that an author of your book, he talked

Brad Miller:

about the practice the application of this. And so for

Brad Miller:

instance, where you're talking about with stillness, and

Brad Miller:

meditative techniques, is, oftentimes the more you do it,

Brad Miller:

the better you get at it, you know, the first several times

Brad Miller:

you try it, you do it, you know, it is that chaos in the mind,

Brad Miller:

the emails and all the things to do. But if you you know, if you

Brad Miller:

do it more on a regular basis with breathing, or a mantra, or

Brad Miller:

a word or a phrase or breathing, exercise then becomes more part

Brad Miller:

of who you are. And you become much more productive as well. At

Brad Miller:

least that's what a lot of the productivity coaches are

Brad Miller:

teaching these days.

Roger Ross:

Yeah, I mean, something that's really popular

Roger Ross:

in our culture right now is mindfulness. You hear people

Roger Ross:

talk about that quite often not mindfulness is another way of

Roger Ross:

talking about meditative prayer. Yes, I mean, mindfulness is just

Roger Ross:

Christian meditation has been going on for many centuries.

Brad Miller:

They're just kind of a secular, a secular framing

Brad Miller:

of that practice, I believe I've been reading some mindfulness

Brad Miller:

type material recently. And yeah, I agree with you.

Roger Ross:

So I found that to be exceedingly important for me

Roger Ross:

to be able to, again, kind of not only put being before doing,

Roger Ross:

but also to be in the presence of God. Because it you know,

Roger Ross:

that there's not Jesus said, we are to abide in him. Right? Not

Roger Ross:

not to do things for him necessarily, but we starts by

Roger Ross:

abiding in him, you know, and when we're abiding in him, when

Roger Ross:

we're connected to the vine, that's when the fruit can be

Roger Ross:

born in our lives. But when we're off doing and frantically

Roger Ross:

going in one direction or another 100 different directions

Roger Ross:

at one time, there's very little binding going on. And so small

Roger Ross:

wonder that there's not very much fruit that's being born.

Brad Miller:

Speaking of the fruit and success and or

Brad Miller:

whatever you want to call it, their the productivity. I would

Brad Miller:

notice that Roger use a lot of sports analogies and analogies

Brad Miller:

from the lives of people who have had, you know, basically

Brad Miller:

hit a bottom had to come back and what they experienced on the

Brad Miller:

way back our experience, once they came, came back, and then

Brad Miller:

the theme of your book is come back and of course, you know,

Brad Miller:

one analogy is for us where there's been some body behind it

Brad Miller:

a basketball game or whatever it would be had come back and the

Brad Miller:

exhilaration, the focus it takes to come back and the

Brad Miller:

exhilaration of the victory and you also image about some, some

Brad Miller:

people that you have had experiences with who have had

Brad Miller:

that as well, some pretty tough situations and come back. So

Brad Miller:

tell syllabus more about examples of how this is out

Brad Miller:

there, whether it's some sports analogy or some person about how

Brad Miller:

the focus that they had to take in order to turn it around, and

Brad Miller:

the exhilaration of the victory.

Roger Ross:

Yeah, so there are several examples of people that

Roger Ross:

use them the, in the book that are, you know, famous people

Roger Ross:

that most of us would know, somebody like Tiger Woods is a

Roger Ross:

great example of someone who had a disastrous fall, very public

Roger Ross:

fall back in 2009. And how over essentially a 10 year period, he

Roger Ross:

clawed and scratched his way back to finally then eventually

Roger Ross:

win the 2019. Masters, which was in, in many sports writers,

Roger Ross:

minds and sports experts minds, probably the biggest, if not one

Roger Ross:

of the biggest about the biggest sports turnaround in history,

Roger Ross:

because this guy, he had gone through, I think three different

Roger Ross:

back surgeries before that. He had basically said, Look, I'm

Roger Ross:

done two years before that, he had told people at the Masters

Roger Ross:

in 2017, I'm never gonna play again. Certainly not playing at

Roger Ross:

a professional level. But he just kept coming back. And part

Roger Ross:

of that was, you know, he, he had to listen to his emotions,

Roger Ross:

he had to engage in solitude and stillness, for sure. But he also

Roger Ross:

had to seek wise counsel. And that's the third step, you have

Roger Ross:

to find a guide. And he had a whole team of guides in his

Roger Ross:

life, that would help him to be able to make the journey back,

Roger Ross:

you know, on a medical level, on an emotional spiritual level, on

Roger Ross:

a relational level, he had a whole team of people that were

Roger Ross:

kind of desert dedicated to helping him make that turn. But

Roger Ross:

you know, even with wise counsel, at some point, you'll

Roger Ross:

have to just make a plan and start taking action. You know,

Roger Ross:

you you have to realize this isn't going to happen all by

Roger Ross:

itself.

Brad Miller:

You got to work, you got to get out.

Roger Ross:

Yeah, you have to get after it. Absolutely. So,

Roger Ross:

like anything in life, I mean, you know, the the things that

Roger Ross:

are most important to us, we invest in, yes. And I, you know,

Roger Ross:

this book didn't write itself. You know, it may have been

Roger Ross:

inspired, initially back in July 2019. But it took a lot of

Roger Ross:

hours, a lot of time, you know, when I could have been doing

Roger Ross:

other things. But I sense the need to do this, even if, even

Roger Ross:

if just my mom, my sister wrote it, or read it better. I knew, I

Roger Ross:

knew that I needed to write it, because I needed to work out

Roger Ross:

some things in my own heart in my own life. And part part of

Roger Ross:

that was making a plan and taking action. Because, you

Roger Ross:

know, basically, the two kinds of people in life, you know,

Roger Ross:

there are people that like to plan their people like to act.

Roger Ross:

And oftentimes they don't go together, right. But a plan

Roger Ross:

without action is just as ineffective as action without a

Roger Ross:

plan. You you need them both. There's a healthy balance

Brad Miller:

that ends up in effective planning without

Brad Miller:

action is entertainment are an intellectual exercise, you know,

Brad Miller:

it's just not getting anywhere.

Roger Ross:

Right? So I can't remember exactly the quote, but

Roger Ross:

it's something like a dream without a plan is a nightmare.

Roger Ross:

You know, it's just

Brad Miller:

you have your moment of clarity, clarity of

Brad Miller:

decision, do you decide to do something, write a book, come

Brad Miller:

back to when the Masters but then you it doesn't happen

Brad Miller:

instantaneously. You don't choose to do this, you don't

Brad Miller:

choose to have some great accomplishment in life. And it

Brad Miller:

just doesn't happen instantaneous. You got to work

Brad Miller:

at it. And oh, by the way, it doesn't stop or I mean, but as

Brad Miller:

you know, I just use Tiger wizard example. Yeah, he won the

Brad Miller:

Masters a couple years ago. But now we're recording this. And in

Brad Miller:

March of 2021, just a month or so ago, he had a terrible

Brad Miller:

accent. And if he wants to come back, he's gonna have to come

Brad Miller:

back again. Right, Fred?

Roger Ross:

Exactly. That's exactly right. I mean, Tiger, I

Roger Ross:

mean, I've been praying for Tiger Tiger went through a

Roger Ross:

terrible fall, so to speak, in his car accident. And once

Roger Ross:

again, there are grave questions as to whether he's ever going to

Roger Ross:

be able to play golf again. So he'll have to, you'll have to

Roger Ross:

climb this mountain again, so to speak. But but the last part,

Roger Ross:

which I think is the part that most people don't have

Roger Ross:

Appreciate, to come back journey is trusting the process. Once

Roger Ross:

you've gone through these other steps, you've made a plan, you

Roger Ross:

need to take action. This is the part that derails most people,

Roger Ross:

frankly, they choose to make this come back then. And then

Roger Ross:

they get about halfway there. And they get stuck. And they

Roger Ross:

start to struggle, because they start to doubt whether they can

Roger Ross:

actually come back or not. And, and doubt creeps in. And, you

Roger Ross:

know, the thing that I've found in my own life is a doubt is the

Roger Ross:

leading edge of faith. And it's faith, this the unseen secret of

Roger Ross:

turnarounds, you have to believe in things that you can't see yet

Roger Ross:

to be able to make it all the way back. And, and, frankly,

Roger Ross:

without struggle, there's no comeback.

Brad Miller:

Wow. And I think it's very, very true. There's

Brad Miller:

been lots of evidence about people in the middle of whatever

Brad Miller:

they're doing, and just don't make it they give up, I think,

Brad Miller:

you know, during this COVID crisis, we've seen some people

Brad Miller:

who just kind of threw up their hands and said, you know, it's

Brad Miller:

over with, I can't do anything about this and other people, for

Brad Miller:

instance, the medical scientific community, put their put their

Brad Miller:

mind to developing the vaccines and came up with it in a year or

Brad Miller:

so. Whereas what you usually have been a long process and,

Brad Miller:

and I know that there have been some writers who've talked about

Brad Miller:

this, the nature of that, of that draw that will just draw

Brad Miller:

you down, kind of that will that grief, and that will take you

Brad Miller:

down the middle of the though I called them a lazy mediocrity,

Brad Miller:

you get stuck in the middle, and we'll just kill you, which is

Brad Miller:

kill you. And I've tried to think of the word that some

Brad Miller:

writers have used, but we'll just kill you. But you got to

Brad Miller:

get through that time. But what gets you through that time is

Brad Miller:

hope and faith.

Roger Ross:

Right? So I mean, with writers I talk about

Roger Ross:

writer's block, well, you know, writer's block comes right at

Roger Ross:

this time, when, when you've got the plan, you're taking action,

Roger Ross:

and you get, you know, partway there, maybe halfway there, and

Roger Ross:

you just get stuck. And that's when you have to take this final

Roger Ross:

step, which is simply trusting the process. And trusting the

Roger Ross:

process is to say, you know, I can't see the progress I'm

Roger Ross:

making today versus yesterday. I'm not sure that what I do

Roger Ross:

today is going to make that much of a difference by tomorrow. But

Roger Ross:

I just have to trust the process and keep putting one foot in

Roger Ross:

front of the other. And that's what faith is about. Hmm.

Brad Miller:

One of the writers I've read recently about this,

Brad Miller:

he calls a trust of soup, which is where you put all the

Brad Miller:

ingredients into what you're working on. And it's got to come

Brad Miller:

out, but you got to trust the process. You got to keep it

Brad Miller:

still want to keep it going. And trust the process, you're going

Brad Miller:

to come up with something good. Exactly.

Unknown:

Yeah,

Roger Ross:

exactly. And really the the transforming practice

Roger Ross:

for trusting and processes is doing something that's very

Roger Ross:

counterintuitive, especially in our very active mystic American

Roger Ross:

life. And that is embrace patient trust.

Brad Miller:

Factor. I think my bed same writer sets up like

Brad Miller:

embrace the suck, you know, it's going to stay.

Roger Ross:

Yeah, actually, I just read an article about that.

Roger Ross:

I think that was Bernie brown that says that.

Brad Miller:

Yeah, yeah, that was one of the writers I've

Brad Miller:

written, I wish. I wish I could think of this guy that I'm

Brad Miller:

thinking, who is what is what books are called do the work. I

Brad Miller:

can think of the book title though I can't think of the

Brad Miller:

author's name. But he has to do with this process who we're

Brad Miller:

talking about here. But here's what I want to come around to

Brad Miller:

this with you here, Roger is come back where you come back to

Brad Miller:

you're coming back to a good coming back to a good place. So

Brad Miller:

what's the best thing about a comeback? What's the best thing

Brad Miller:

about coming home or coming to that better place?

Roger Ross:

You know, this is the thing that probably

Roger Ross:

surprised me the most about writing to me about writing a

Roger Ross:

book read, because to to, to come back to return to the life

Roger Ross:

you were made for does not necessarily mean that you're

Roger Ross:

going to win the game. Or that you're going to come back out on

Roger Ross:

top with whatever it was that you were, you know, initially

Roger Ross:

shooting for a comeback, you know, really truly understood

Roger Ross:

is, is coming home to who God made you to be. It's realizing

Roger Ross:

that you've been on this long journey when you finally come

Roger Ross:

back home. You're seeing it now with fresh eyes. Like you could

Roger Ross:

never see it before. I mean, think about the prodigal son.

Roger Ross:

When he came back home. He saw home in a way that he had never

Roger Ross:

seen it before and he lived there his whole life. And that's

Roger Ross:

the beauty of a true comeback because it transforms you from

Roger Ross:

the inside. And now you see life in a different way. It

Roger Ross:

tenderizes your heart It provides when a comeback works

Roger Ross:

the way it's supposed to, provides a level of compassion

Roger Ross:

that you could not have had previously, it enables you to,

Roger Ross:

to actually practice humility. I mean, think about the tiger

Roger Ross:

woods that we knew before 2009 and the tiger woods that we know

Roger Ross:

now. I mean, he's really a different man.

Brad Miller:

making a contribution, much more

Brad Miller:

approachable, things like that. So

Roger Ross:

yeah, and really, frankly, much more humble.

Roger Ross:

Because he's faced some of his own inner demons. He's, he's

Roger Ross:

realized some of his limitations. And he's embraced

Roger Ross:

some of his own humanity, some of which was not, you know,

Roger Ross:

particularly a pretty thing to look at. But he's allowed that

Roger Ross:

to kind of be absorbed into who he is now, more fully as more

Roger Ross:

mature, man.

Unknown:

Yes.

Brad Miller:

Well, I've just would, I think we're really what

Brad Miller:

we're talking about, ultimately, here is transformation. You

Brad Miller:

know, transformation, we, we have this point where we're

Brad Miller:

cruising along, and everything seems to be going in one way or

Brad Miller:

another, okay, then we hit a fall. Well, whatever your fall

Brad Miller:

was impacted you greatly. Everyone, many, many people had

Brad Miller:

a fall with a pandemic, other people have a financial issue or

Brad Miller:

moral issue or a issue with health, whatever it is, or with

Brad Miller:

something else, maybe death in the family, and what are you

Brad Miller:

going to do about it? So, but the idea here is to come back

Brad Miller:

home to where you were exactly that place that was where you

Brad Miller:

left, because may that may not be, where God wants you to be

Brad Miller:

the best place to transform to something renewed. And I'm

Brad Miller:

reminded of the biblical stories of emerging to a good place, the

Brad Miller:

promised land, you know, to the 40 days in the wilderness, the

Brad Miller:

40 years in the wilderness, all these stories about

Brad Miller:

transformation takes place, you left something at home, and you

Brad Miller:

come through the storm, you come through the wilderness, you come

Brad Miller:

through this, and you come to a better place. And what you're

Brad Miller:

doing here is helping us to do this through identifying the

Brad Miller:

problem. Getting some mentors along the way, getting to know

Brad Miller:

yourself going into that those quiet places, embracing the the

Brad Miller:

trust, trusting the process, and then celebrating it so good. How

Brad Miller:

to tell if there's one more thing and then we'll let you go

Brad Miller:

here just a few bit, just a minute or two here. Tell us

Brad Miller:

about how you've seen this happen. In others, either in a

Brad Miller:

person you've worked with, or perhaps an organization, you

Brad Miller:

work with an a party, your role is to work with churches, many

Brad Miller:

churches that may be struggling, and we live in a world right now

Brad Miller:

in our United Methodist Church with a lot of churches, and even

Brad Miller:

our denomination is having its share of falls and struggles and

Brad Miller:

dynamics, which are just, you know, painful. It's evolved in

Brad Miller:

many ways. What is your suggestion? Or what is your

Brad Miller:

example of some individuals or organizations that have chosen

Brad Miller:

to do a pass on what what you're what you're talking about here?

Brad Miller:

Well, there's

Roger Ross:

lots of individuals. You know, we've, we've mentioned

Roger Ross:

a couple on the way here, but with regard to an organization,

Roger Ross:

I mean, I know a number of churches that have realized, you

Roger Ross:

know, what, we're in some part of this process that I just

Roger Ross:

outlined his comeback journey that I just outlined. And having

Roger Ross:

an idea of where you are in that journey is hugely important for

Roger Ross:

you to be able to make whatever the next step is for you. I just

Roger Ross:

talked with one of the supervisors of our churches in

Roger Ross:

Missouri, and she told me that there's a church that has had a

Roger Ross:

terrible fall, I mean, terrible financial mismanagement. by half

Roger Ross:

the congregation has left lots of hurt feelings, and you know,

Roger Ross:

just difficult things going on in life that congregation but a

Roger Ross:

new pastor has just been appointed to that church. And

Roger Ross:

for the first time in yours, the people that are left in that

Roger Ross:

church actually have a sense of hope that they could instead of

Roger Ross:

being on a kind of a March, toward decline, and then

Roger Ross:

ultimate death, they now realize you know what, this thing could

Roger Ross:

turn around. We have the possibility of, of taking the

Roger Ross:

fall that we all recognize has happened in our lives

Roger Ross:

collectively as a congregation. And embracing a different

Roger Ross:

journey that would take us to a different destination. So, I

Roger Ross:

mean, that's just that happened just today, I see all kinds of

Roger Ross:

churches that that have that kind of light comeback in their

Roger Ross:

lives, which represents hope listener heart, you know,

Brad Miller:

what I said, you mentioned that I see that as an

Brad Miller:

inflection point, you know, rather than tipping the tipping

Brad Miller:

point of, you know, if we keep going, allowing the demise or

Brad Miller:

allowing the fall to crush us, then we will continue down that

Brad Miller:

slide and the momentum will take us out. But if, in this case,

Brad Miller:

inflection point, a new pastor, but our own lives, we can have

Brad Miller:

our own inflection points to choose to do something about and

Brad Miller:

of course, hurt our own beloved United Methodist Church, we have

Brad Miller:

our own chaos we have our own dilemmas to deal with. And my

Brad Miller:

hope and prayer is that I don't think we're going to ever go

Brad Miller:

back to what we were not too many years ago. And some sort of

Brad Miller:

sensibility of us all getting along, or else on the same

Brad Miller:

track. Something new will emerge in the process the next year or

Brad Miller:

two. But I hope that it's a good thing and hope it's a good thing

Brad Miller:

that we can all emerge to some better place. Do you have any

Brad Miller:

thoughts? you have any thoughts about that at all, before we

Brad Miller:

conclude our conversation?

Roger Ross:

Well, I I do think that we're moving as a United

Roger Ross:

Methodist Church in different directions. And that's not

Roger Ross:

unusual. If you look at our history, we've done that for

Roger Ross:

generations. Now, for the last couple of 100 years, we've been

Roger Ross:

doing that, in the United method, what is now the I love

Roger Ross:

the church, what is Methodism over the course of last couple

Roger Ross:

100 years, 250 years in America. So that that shouldn't be a big

Roger Ross:

surprise to us. What's hard is the the relational changes that

Roger Ross:

will come as a result of that, there, there'll be people that

Roger Ross:

we know and love, that go in different directions, and we're

Roger Ross:

not going to be seeing them near as much are working with them

Roger Ross:

near as closely. And that part's gonna be hard, you know,

Brad Miller:

that's the grief, that's the pain,

Roger Ross:

there's going to be that's, that's that will be the

Roger Ross:

fall for us. Figuring out how to, to process that in an

Roger Ross:

emotionally healthy way, instead of kind of throwing hate bombs

Roger Ross:

at each other, which is what we have had a tendency to do. And

Roger Ross:

you know, I'm at the church, I think will be our biggest

Roger Ross:

challenge and potentially our greatest victory if we can do

Roger Ross:

that.

Brad Miller:

Yes. Well, that's the hope and prayer is having a

Brad Miller:

great victory. And we've been talking here today about having

Brad Miller:

personal victories and victories and local churches and or other

Brad Miller:

organizations and, and your book is all about that making a

Brad Miller:

comeback and getting through these falls and coming to a

Brad Miller:

better place. And it's available at cokesbury. And at Amazon and

Brad Miller:

anyplace else, the books are sold, it's by Abington press.

Brad Miller:

And I commend our folks to check that out. But part of checking

Brad Miller:

out that book is some resources that you have, they're

Brad Miller:

specifically designed for study groups or perhaps for developing

Brad Miller:

lessons. So would you tell us what about the supplemental

Brad Miller:

resources that are available

Unknown:

for the book? comeback?

Roger Ross:

Sure. Thanks, Brad. Actually, as soon as I brought

Roger Ross:

the book out, I had pastors start to ask me, well, could we

Roger Ross:

do this in our church? And would you like also provide a study

Roger Ross:

guide for that? And I said, Well, I hadn't really thought

Roger Ross:

about writing a study guide, but I guess I could. And so a few

Roger Ross:

months after the book came out, the study guide came out as

Roger Ross:

well. And it looks a lot the same, I mean, all you can, you

Roger Ross:

can tell, at the bottom, it says Participant Guide, that's the

Roger Ross:

only difference between the two. But the Participant Guide is

Roger Ross:

based on the ability to kind of take the process the five

Roger Ross:

different steps we've been talking about, and put them into

Roger Ross:

play in a person's life. And they're the study guide can be

Roger Ross:

either used, or the placement guide can be used either as a

Roger Ross:

small group, or it can be done on an individual study basis,

Roger Ross:

either one of those work. And so there's a small group component

Roger Ross:

that kind of leads you through what you would do if you're

Roger Ross:

together with, you know, six 810 older folks. But there's also

Roger Ross:

things that can be done individually by persons, five

Roger Ross:

days out of the week in between the group sessions. So if you're

Roger Ross:

doing say a six session, six week deal, there's plenty of

Roger Ross:

stuff that you can be doing in between for individual studies

Roger Ross:

and to really drive the transforming practices into your

Roger Ross:

life. That's the idea.

Brad Miller:

So there's an implementation and application

Brad Miller:

process for the individual as well as for a group And I

Brad Miller:

assumed that if a pastor Swati wanted to use this as a resource

Brad Miller:

for building a sermon series or something along this line that

Brad Miller:

is perhaps could be helpful in that regard, as well.

Roger Ross:

Absolutely. Yeah, that that was really kind of the

Roger Ross:

idea behind it. I actually had a church, one of the larger

Roger Ross:

churches in Illinois that took their church through this in the

Roger Ross:

fall of 2020. Because that was when they were bringing people

Roger Ross:

back for in person worship. And I thought, well, what a good way

Roger Ross:

to do that. We'll just talk about come back, as we are

Roger Ross:

coming back for years and listen,

Brad Miller:

yes. Awesome. Well, tell us how that went. If you

Brad Miller:

have any reports about how that when that was applied in a small

Brad Miller:

group or church setting, how did it go? How do people respond?

Roger Ross:

Well, I can share with you what my friend Andy

Roger Ross:

Adams, who's the senior pastor there talked about, he said, it

Roger Ross:

really kind of served as a gracious way to invite people

Roger Ross:

back to God, as well as providing a unifying theme for

Roger Ross:

their church in the midst of a time that had been very

Roger Ross:

disconnected due to summer months in the pandemic and the

Roger Ross:

like. So they found that the church wide study provided an

Roger Ross:

easy step for their members to be engaged in community. As they

Roger Ross:

got into journey groups into subsequent groups that they had

Roger Ross:

available, and use the Participant Guide for that

Roger Ross:

process

Brad Miller:

was an awesome, awesome resource. And that's

Brad Miller:

available as a separate resource from the book itself. Is that

Brad Miller:

also available at cokesbury? and Amazon and so forth?

Roger Ross:

Yep. All those places. Awesome, awesome.

Brad Miller:

Well, Roger, anything else you want to say

Brad Miller:

either about the book or the resource or anything else? If

Brad Miller:

people want to be in contact with you, for instance, do you

Brad Miller:

have How can people knows more about Roger Ross and his writing

Brad Miller:

his ministry, what you're up to how you can have how they can

Brad Miller:

learn more about the ways that you can input input have input

Brad Miller:

in their lives?

Roger Ross:

Well actually just put together a new website

Roger Ross:

called Roger Ross online, Roger Ross dot online. And that's

Roger Ross:

where the doing my blogging and providing other little tidbits

Roger Ross:

here and there, you can kind of see where I may be speaking of

Roger Ross:

might be a time that I'm speaking in somebody's their

Roger Ross:

area. And there are other things that that might be of interest

Roger Ross:

on the website.

Brad Miller:

Awesome, awesome. Roger Ross dot online is where

Brad Miller:

you can find any blogs and some other resources there. He's the

Brad Miller:

author of come back and come back study guide resources. Few

Brad Miller:

years ago, he had to book beat the good people, which is a

Brad Miller:

great book as well. You can pick up all those books that have

Brad Miller:

cokesbury, Amazon and other places books are available. And

Brad Miller:

we continue to be thankful to our good friend Roger Ross,

Brad Miller:

author of come back. Thank you, Roger.

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About the Podcast

The United Methodist People Podcast
The United Methodist People Podcast is about the pastors, people, ministries of the United Methodist Church as the church navigates anxious times
The United Methodist People Podcast is all about the pastors, people, ministries, and work of the United Methodist Church. The focus is telling the stories which help the United Methodist Church navigate anxious times and support the mission of Making Disciples of Jesus Christ for the Transformation of The World. The United Methodist Podcast also will address issues and matters which challenge the church and provide a forum for constructive discourse to take place over matters regarding the polity and practice of the United Methodist Church.
The United Methodist Podcast is a place for opinion and conversation among persons who care about the health and vitality of the United Methodist Church and is not in any way officially sanctioned by any part of the United Methodist Church.

About your host

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Dr. Brad Miller

I have 40 years of experience in Christian ministry and hold a Doctoral degree in life transformation strategic planning. I am the publisher of the Cancer and Comedy Podcast: Helping Cancer Impacted People to Heal with Hope and Humor