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Published on:

3rd May 2021

47. All Things “Room For All Coalition” - Advocating Inclusion of LGBTQ+ Persons in The United Methodist Church with Alberto Hidalgo, Rev. Jerry Rairdon and Rev. Mary Dicken

In Episode 47 of “The United Methodist People Podcast,” Rev. Dr. Brad Miller engages in an in-depth conversation with three core leaders of The Room For All Coalition.  The Room For All Coalition was formed in the Indiana Annual Conference in 2019 as a response to decisions made at the 2019 General Conference which (RFA) considered destructive to the church by bringing harm to persons who identify as LGBTQ+ and their allies.

Alberto Hidalgo îs a layperson from the Broadway UMC in Indianapolis who became heartbroken when he saw the UMC make a decision that when against his passion regarding inclusivity in the church. He got involved with The Room for All Coalition and is was elected as a Jurisdictional delegate from the Indiana Annual Conference.

Rev. Mary Dicken is an ordained Deacon in the Indiana Conference of The United Methodist Church, currently serving at Meridian Street United Methodist Church in Indianapolis and previously serving churches throughout southern Indiana and in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. She is passionate about connecting the church with the hurts and hopes of the world, creating space for sacred questions, and making room for people who have not always felt comfortable or welcome in the church.

Rev. Jerry Rairdon is the Lead Pastor of First UMC-Noblesville, Indiana. When the decisions at the 2019 General Conference troubled him to his soul he received a spiritual leading to do something about it. This leads him to become one of the founding members of The Room For All Coalition.

All three of these leaders shared their faith stories and how that lead them to become a part of The Room For All Coalition.


The conversation Brad had with RFA leaders dealt with an honest assessment of the state of the church including the uneasiness regarding the delay in the General Conference until 2022 and how the stress of not making a decision is problematic.


The discussion leads to the listening and learning the RFA has been doing with local churches and church folk which is a part of sharing and interpreting the agenda of RFA to be inclusive of LGBTQ+ folk.


The conversation concluded with a discussion by all parties on a vision and hope for the church moving forward.


Episode 47 of The United Methodist People Podcast is an important listen for any person wanting to understand the position of groups like the Room For All Coalition.


The United Methodist People Podcast has the mission of strengthening the connection in the United Methodist Church through conversation and commentary. it is published by Rev. Dr. Brad Miller an Elder in the Indiana Annual Conference 


Mary Dicken mary.dicken@inumc.org

Jerry Rairdon jrairdon@noblesvillefirst.com

Alberto Hidalgo ahidalgojr@aol.com


https://www.roomforallin.org/


https://www.facebook.com/RoomForAllIN

Transcript
Brad Miller:

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller here with you on the

Brad Miller:

United Methodist people podcast. This is the podcast, where we

Brad Miller:

look to help to strengthen the connection in the United

Brad Miller:

Methodist Church, through conversation and commentary. And

Brad Miller:

our conversation and commentary today is all about the room for

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all coalition, which is an organization created in the NDA

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in the Indiana conference in 2019. As a response to decisions

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made at General Conference in 2019, which were thought to

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brought harm to folks who identify as LGBTQ plus and their

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allies. We have three folks with us today. Who are with with the

Brad Miller:

roof roll coalition. Reverend Mary Dixon is a past from the

Brad Miller:

staff the meridian St. United Methodist Church in

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Indianapolis, where she is a pastor of mission and

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discipleship. We also have with us Mr. Reverend Jerry Raritan

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from the First United Methodist Church in Noblesville, Indiana,

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and he where he is the lead pastor and one of the founders

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of the room for all coalition. And Mr. Albert Hill doggo, who

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is a lay person who works in sales the data for children. He

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is a member of the Indianapolis Broadway United Methodist Church

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and is a lay delegate to jurisdictional conference. And

Brad Miller:

my name is Reverend Dr. Brad Miller and lead pastor, the

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Otterbein United Methodist Church in Indianapolis. And we

Brad Miller:

are all a part of the room for all coalition. Welcome to our

Brad Miller:

podcast today, Mary, Jerry and Albert.

Brad Miller:

Thank you. Thank you glad to be here. Thank you, awesome dude to

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have you with us. So Mary, and Jerry and Albert and myself,

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have been a part of this organization for a while and I

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just want to read off the founding document the founding

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statement about what the room for all coalition is all about,

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which comes directly from the verb the website, which is a

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room for all i n.org. And it says the Indiana room for all

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coalition is formed in February 2019. to oppose the harm created

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by the passage of the traditional plan. At the 2019

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General Conference in the United Methodist Church in St. Louis.

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We believe the traditional plan, the organizations behind it

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bring harm to persons who identify as LGBTQ plus, and

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their allies, the passage of the traditional plan has resulted in

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loss of faithful members will not be a part of the church that

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that excludes, it negatively impacts the witness to the

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United Methodist Church to a world that has grown skeptical

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of organized religion. I just want to share that with you as a

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foundational document for our conversation here or here today.

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But people come to an organization like this, and

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they're similar ones throughout the country have their own faith

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journey in their own faith, true faith pathway. And so I just

Brad Miller:

want to ask you, Albert, first of all, if you don't mind, can

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you share with us and with our audience here, a little bit of

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what brought you to Jesus Christ in the first place, and the

Brad Miller:

pathway that may have led you to be a part of an organization

Brad Miller:

like the room for all coalition? Absolutely. Thank you for the

Brad Miller:

opportunity, Brad.

Unknown:

So I grew up Roman Catholic. I'm the only son of

Unknown:

Cuban parents. And, you know, a lot of my upbringing was about

Unknown:

shoulds, as an only son as a Roman Catholic. And I had to

Unknown:

acknowledge that my faith wasn't very different than that it was

Unknown:

it was really quite rule oriented or dogma oriented.

Alberto Hidalgo:

And I have to admit that when I was a senior

Alberto Hidalgo:

in high school, I went on a retreat, and there was a portion

Alberto Hidalgo:

of time that was silent. And during that retreat time period,

Alberto Hidalgo:

I was in a hallway of this church building, and there was a

Alberto Hidalgo:

poster that said,

Alberto Hidalgo:

I had come that you might have life to its fullest. JOHN 10,

Alberto Hidalgo:

verse 10, and that just struck me as very powerful. I then

Alberto Hidalgo:

I was really struggling with you know, is Jesus calling me to do

Alberto Hidalgo:

anything more than then, you know, a senior in high school

Alberto Hidalgo:

would too and I didn't know exactly what that meant, but I

Alberto Hidalgo:

had a couple philosophies about it that you know, God is greater

Alberto Hidalgo:

than anything that we we humans can can imagine. But anyway, I

Alberto Hidalgo:

went and talked to this priest who knew exactly what was going

Alberto Hidalgo:

on in my heart. And you know, before I even spoke anything he

Alberto Hidalgo:

goes, you are struggling as to whether or not you should say

Alberto Hidalgo:

yes to God, and what that all might mean. So it really was

Alberto Hidalgo:

dumbfounding to me so I did get involved quite a bit in my

Alberto Hidalgo:

spiritual growth

Alberto Hidalgo:

And it was, you know, many years later that I fell in love and

Alberto Hidalgo:

became partnered with a gentleman that I'm in

Alberto Hidalgo:

relationship with, for almost 13 years. He's the one that brought

Alberto Hidalgo:

me to Broadway United Methodist Church as a matter of fact. So

Alberto Hidalgo:

the four kids and I joined him at Broadway. And one of the

Alberto Hidalgo:

things

Alberto Hidalgo:

was that it was all about relationship. It was about

Alberto Hidalgo:

seeking, welcoming and valuing all people.

Unknown:

So

Alberto Hidalgo:

as I learned more about what it is to be a

Alberto Hidalgo:

Methodist, or what Wesleyan quadrilateral made so much sense

Alberto Hidalgo:

to me, you know, that God reveals himself, you know,

Alberto Hidalgo:

certainly in in Scripture and tradition in Revelation, but

Alberto Hidalgo:

also in in rational thought, with reason. So I really found

Alberto Hidalgo:

my home, spiritually within the United Methodist Church. So it

Alberto Hidalgo:

led me to row for all coalition is the fact that as I was

Alberto Hidalgo:

seeing, you know, part of our church want to change that

Alberto Hidalgo:

inclusive. Everyone under the tent umbrella. I felt like I

Alberto Hidalgo:

needed to be a part of a solution part of a movement, if

Alberto Hidalgo:

you will, to say, No, no, no, don't forget about me. I'm also

Alberto Hidalgo:

part of God's family and I have a place. Well, thank

Brad Miller:

you for sharing that Albert. And that's a,

Brad Miller:

that's a great a great witness, Sara, Mary, I want to speak with

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you for a minute to get your response to your your pathway,

Brad Miller:

what brought you to a relationship with Christ in the

Brad Miller:

first place, and then your pathway, which led you to be a

Brad Miller:

part of the roof roll coalition, the things you're involved with?

Mary Dicken:

Thanks, Brad, I love that you're starting with

Mary Dicken:

this question, because I think our stories are really powerful.

Mary Dicken:

And, and, you know, they really shaped who we are and what we do

Mary Dicken:

today. So for me, I, I grew up in the United Methodist Church,

Mary Dicken:

I come from a long line of Methodists. I come from a multi

Mary Dicken:

generational United Methodist clergy family. And so I was

Mary Dicken:

always in the church as a child and as a youth and specifically

Mary Dicken:

in the United Methodist Church. And I can think about sort of

Mary Dicken:

key moments during that time that you could call significant

Mary Dicken:

moments of, of commitment and my faith journey, those often took

Mary Dicken:

place at summer camp, I'm a big proponent of,

Mary Dicken:

of the experience of camping of church camp, also through youth

Mary Dicken:

conferences, and and those kind of experiences. But you know, it

Mary Dicken:

was when I went away from home, and I went to college, like many

Mary Dicken:

that was the time when all of these beliefs and

Mary Dicken:

understandings, you know, I went through my own Wrestling's and

Mary Dicken:

had to start making them my own. And,

Mary Dicken:

to be honest, I really wasn't that interested in church. And

Mary Dicken:

it wasn't that I was like, I didn't have an experience of

Mary Dicken:

being suddenly opposed to church or being anti christianity or,

Mary Dicken:

you know, turning away from Christ in any way. It was truly

Mary Dicken:

just that there were more interesting things to do on the

Mary Dicken:

weekend than go to church.

Mary Dicken:

that that was sort of the start of my kind of owning faith as an

Mary Dicken:

adult and, and really feeling compelled to live out this faith

Mary Dicken:

within the United Methodist Church. And it was, it was a

Mary Dicken:

long journey after that, that kind of led me to ordained

Mary Dicken:

ministry wasn't a straight path as it is true for many clergy.

Mary Dicken:

But I, you know, I think I heard in your question, then what led

Mary Dicken:

you to the room for all coalition into being involved in

Mary Dicken:

this work? Yes, um,

Mary Dicken:

you know, and that's, that would be a long story. But what I'll

Mary Dicken:

try to give a short version of it, which is, so I, I grew up in

Mary Dicken:

a family

Mary Dicken:

that, in many ways was invested in this conflict in the church.

Mary Dicken:

My father was actively involved in the confessing movement, and

Mary Dicken:

the good news movements, in the sort of conservative caucus

Mary Dicken:

groups, not only in our own connection here in Indiana, but

Mary Dicken:

even nationally, and at the same time, I have one sibling, I have

Mary Dicken:

an older sister, and she is LGBTQ. And she's now married to

Mary Dicken:

a woman. They have a beautiful baby girl that was just born

Mary Dicken:

just a few weeks ago. And so I grew up in a house that

Mary Dicken:

particularly going into my teenage years, and again, those

Mary Dicken:

early years of college, there was a lot of tension and

Mary Dicken:

conflict.

Mary Dicken:

So as I grew more and more committed to the United

Mary Dicken:

Methodist Church, I also just grew increasingly convicted

Mary Dicken:

that, that our church needs to be a place that proclaims that

Mary Dicken:

good news. And, you know, so the room for all coalition when it

Mary Dicken:

formed in 2019.

Mary Dicken:

I, it seemed to me that the place to put some of my energy

Mary Dicken:

in the church, because this is the this is the church that God

Mary Dicken:

is calling us to be and, you know, I generally think you

Mary Dicken:

know, you can we can not sit around all day and see what's

Mary Dicken:

wrong with the church or other institutions. But at some point,

Mary Dicken:

we also have to work to change it. Yeah.

Unknown:

Well, we'll

Brad Miller:

dig a little deeper into that, and how then it has

Brad Miller:

implications for our conversation further, but

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certainly, your assumptions were challenged. And a part of what

Brad Miller:

we're talking about here is a assumption has been made about

Brad Miller:

all kinds of things and we'd have to find a new pathway

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forward. And so, Jerry, I want to ask you about A little

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different track with us. It's in previous podcasts, we've shared

Brad Miller:

your face story. But let's talk about maybe a foundational

Brad Miller:

scripture for you, or something out of your expression of your

Brad Miller:

faith which led you to help be a founding member of the room for

Brad Miller:

a coalition, then give us a little background how that

Brad Miller:

happened.

Jerry Rairdon:

Okay. I think a particular scripture doesn't

Jerry Rairdon:

jump out at me.

Jerry Rairdon:

My face story was coming from a family that had a schizophrenic

Jerry Rairdon:

mother. I was surrounded by Plainfield, a Methodist church

Jerry Rairdon:

who loved our family in spite of that challenge.

Jerry Rairdon:

So I've always had a heart for marginalized. So I guess every

Jerry Rairdon:

scripture where Jesus reaches out, and calls us to love the

Jerry Rairdon:

least, certainly speaks to me. And so that translated for me in

Jerry Rairdon:

the beginning of the work of what became room for all came

Jerry Rairdon:

out of the 2018 annual conference session in

Jerry Rairdon:

Indianapolis at the convention center. And I just noticed that

Jerry Rairdon:

we were having debate about a different topic, actually. But I

Jerry Rairdon:

saw once again, the forces of one wing of our church versus

Jerry Rairdon:

the other. And I noticed that people that would tend to call

Jerry Rairdon:

themselves centrist and progressives just were not very

Jerry Rairdon:

organized. And it seemed like, so many things were decided,

Jerry Rairdon:

because the other side was much more organized than us. And I

Jerry Rairdon:

came home. Literally in tears. I told my wife, I said, I feel

Jerry Rairdon:

like God has just grabbed ahold of me and said, Jerry, you got

Jerry Rairdon:

to do something. challenges. I don't know what to do. I know,

Jerry Rairdon:

I've got to do something. So I called a colleague, Rob pukalet,

Jerry Rairdon:

at St. Luke's and I met this church and I said it here's God

Jerry Rairdon:

tugging on my heart, I'm not sure where to begin. How should

Jerry Rairdon:

we start. And so we decided put word out, we had a gathering at

Jerry Rairdon:

St. Luke's inviting what we thought was more progressive and

Jerry Rairdon:

centrist leaning clergy, and invite them to come and have a

Jerry Rairdon:

conversation about what we could do that might have an impact,

Jerry Rairdon:

especially on the discussion of the human sexuality issue that

Jerry Rairdon:

was going to happen at the General Conference in 2019. so

Jerry Rairdon:

quickly that year, we were called the United Methodist,

Jerry Rairdon:

Indiana at that time. And our focus was doing what we could to

Jerry Rairdon:

help pass the one church plan. So we held individual

Jerry Rairdon:

conversations with most of our Indiana delegates that year,

Jerry Rairdon:

just friendly conversations, not trying to tell them what they

Jerry Rairdon:

should do, but just try to explore the possibilities. And

Jerry Rairdon:

if they cared to ask them, we'd share why we thought one church

Jerry Rairdon:

was the chance to hold our church together. And then of

Jerry Rairdon:

course, 2019 happen in St. Louis, I was there as many

Jerry Rairdon:

others. And my heart sunk when the traditional plan passed.

Jerry Rairdon:

That was a sad day. And at that moment, I literally felt like

Jerry Rairdon:

the nine Methodist Church as we know it, died at that moment.

Jerry Rairdon:

And I think what has happened since is proven that the good

Jerry Rairdon:

news and all that was that was such a powerful step. That's

Jerry Rairdon:

people that felt the wrongness of that, that it just energized

Jerry Rairdon:

us. So immediately, our steering team that was made up about

Jerry Rairdon:

seven or eight people, most of the time, boom to 25. We had

Jerry Rairdon:

many clergy sign on to letters that we put newspaper sharing

Jerry Rairdon:

our pain and hurt at the harness done by the General Conference

Jerry Rairdon:

of 2019. And quickly began organizing, and had many people

Jerry Rairdon:

reach out wanting to know what we can do. And so eventually

Jerry Rairdon:

held a couple rallies, one at Noblesville, first in May of

Jerry Rairdon:

2019, another one later in June preceding the annual conference

Jerry Rairdon:

session. And we had 500 to 400 show up the both of those

Jerry Rairdon:

rallies that showed how much interest there was, in wanting

Jerry Rairdon:

to have a more inclusive church. And so we've been kind of on the

Jerry Rairdon:

run since that time. So that shows how we got got started.

Brad Miller:

Oh, that's thanks for giving us that background

Brad Miller:

there. Jerry and just want to I just want to thank both Alberta,

Brad Miller:

Mary for your windows of faith and, and for what you're what

Brad Miller:

you're doing and in the church and through the roof for all

Brad Miller:

coalition and Mary mentioned about assumptions being

Brad Miller:

challenged. And I think all of our assumptions were challenged.

Brad Miller:

And the whole thinking at least I think I'll speak for myself

Brad Miller:

about the United Methodist Church basically being a big

Brad Miller:

tent where everyone could find a place to be and where different

Brad Miller:

place now but I would like for us to speak though for a minute

Brad Miller:

about what is coming out at about the about the power of

Brad Miller:

inclusion and about the pain of exclusion in regards to what God

Brad Miller:

is giving us. structures to do in the church. And so I'll just

Brad Miller:

maybe ask Albert to speak to that maybe Mary as well,

Brad Miller:

inclusion and exclusion. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Brad Miller:

Albert?

Alberto Hidalgo:

I do. I've often thought that. Well, I said

Alberto Hidalgo:

it earlier, God, God, if we believe God is, you know, all

Alberto Hidalgo:

powerful, etc, you know, a supreme beam, which you know we

Alberto Hidalgo:

do in the church, then how can we as humans, as people decide

Alberto Hidalgo:

what God's intentions are? Right? How can we, as humans

Alberto Hidalgo:

decide who's in who's out? This is not a country club. You know,

Alberto Hidalgo:

this is a people of God who come together to celebrate worship

Alberto Hidalgo:

together to see how God has made godself manifest in others.

Alberto Hidalgo:

There's so much abundance here. And I think fear of the

Alberto Hidalgo:

different drives a lot of separation. So, and then that

Alberto Hidalgo:

different. That fear, I should say, is what creates this really

Alberto Hidalgo:

bizarre behavior? Where we're working actively to separate and

Alberto Hidalgo:

it's just, you know, I think God just cries.

Brad Miller:

Yes. Mayor, I just wanted to reflect with you in a

Brad Miller:

minute. But some things Albert is saying there, what we've

Brad Miller:

talked about here about inclusion, exclusion, but I'm

Brad Miller:

thinking about how the response to Albert from other folks might

Brad Miller:

be is that we may feel differently than you. But we

Brad Miller:

love everybody. You know, we know the Bible about love, but

Brad Miller:

the biblical, the biblical accounts regarding LGBTQ issues

Brad Miller:

are clear, and there are admin so on, and therefore we have to

Brad Miller:

take this pathway to defend the scriptural, the scriptural

Brad Miller:

emphasis here. How do we come to terms with that, especially if

Brad Miller:

we're dealing with people who have this track? Mary, do you

Brad Miller:

have any thoughts on that?

Mary Dicken:

Yeah, that's a really great question. Because,

Mary Dicken:

you know, I think one of things I would say is I that I think

Mary Dicken:

most United Methodist churches would say that they love and

Mary Dicken:

welcome all people. I, you know, I actually don't know any United

Mary Dicken:

Methodist Church that would say differently than

Brad Miller:

that. But don't go to everyday Baptist churches,

Brad Miller:

the friendliest church in.

Mary Dicken:

Exactly right. Um, but but you know, it comes down

Mary Dicken:

to this question of, you know, is it is it a conditional love

Mary Dicken:

that you love somebody, but expect them to change who God

Mary Dicken:

created them to be? Right, I don't want to say, just expect

Mary Dicken:

them to change because I think we're all called to change,

Mary Dicken:

right? That's the discipleship path. That's the journey of

Mary Dicken:

transformation. But, but really, when you talk about being an

Mary Dicken:

inclusive church, it means celebrating people in the

Mary Dicken:

fullness of who they are. And really recognizing the very

Mary Dicken:

image of God that is present in them. In that image of God is

Mary Dicken:

expressed in its in our fullness, right? It's not, it's

Mary Dicken:

not just in one aspect of us, and our sexual orientation, and

Mary Dicken:

our gender, and our race, and our, our abilities that we have

Mary Dicken:

our gifts, our talents, all of that is that, that full

Mary Dicken:

expression of the image of God. And and so when we think about

Mary Dicken:

this idea of being truly inclusive and welcoming and

Mary Dicken:

loving as the church, it means going beyond simply saying,

Mary Dicken:

You're welcome here with all these Asterix beside it, but to

Mary Dicken:

say, You're welcome here and we celebrate you, we affirm you,

Mary Dicken:

and we welcome you as this bearer of the image of God, you

Mary Dicken:

know, I had, somebody once said to me, there is a part of God, I

Mary Dicken:

cannot know, if I only interact with people like me, there is a

Mary Dicken:

part of God, I cannot know if I only interact with people like

Mary Dicken:

me. And that that sense has struck me so much over the

Mary Dicken:

years. And I repeat it all the time. And because there's so

Mary Dicken:

much truth in it, you know, if we want to see Christ, if we

Mary Dicken:

want to know who God is, we have to actually embrace and

Mary Dicken:

celebrate and welcome and be in relationship with people who are

Mary Dicken:

different from us. And that absolutely includes LGBTQ people

Mary Dicken:

in our church and and what a gift. The presence of that

Mary Dicken:

diversity is, if we would, we would only just be open to it.

Mary Dicken:

And I'm also thinking right now, you know, Brad about that, just

Mary Dicken:

because it's one of our lectionary texts in this time

Mary Dicken:

period that we're in that story of the the Ethiopian eunuch,

Mary Dicken:

right and when he says, to fill up, what is to prevent me from

Mary Dicken:

being baptized, A great question and what a great challenge to

Mary Dicken:

the church, you know? Yeah. So

Brad Miller:

the The question is posed to us what keeps us from

Brad Miller:

being inclusive and embracing others and to celebrating that

Brad Miller:

what keeps us from that and, and perhaps it's some of our own

Brad Miller:

internal nonsense that we have to deal with and our own psyche

Brad Miller:

and our response virtualize our own theologies, and how that's

Brad Miller:

manifested in local churches and conferences, and in general

Brad Miller:

conferences and all the stuff we're talking about here. And

Brad Miller:

this, this conversation we're having at other organizations,

Brad Miller:

like a room for a coalition have emerged throughout the whole

Brad Miller:

country in either whole world, rather the same time and kind of

Brad Miller:

response to this. So there is something happening and there is

Brad Miller:

a movement that is happening. But I think it's important that

Brad Miller:

we not be caught our own bubbles as well and be good listeners

Brad Miller:

and good reflectors of what's going on and out in the out of

Brad Miller:

the world, especially our local churches. And I know recently,

Brad Miller:

room for all has had some learnings and listening

Brad Miller:

sessions, some visioning sessions, connecting with

Brad Miller:

others. And Jerry, you speak to that, or maybe someone speak to

Brad Miller:

that what are we learning are these visioning and listening

Brad Miller:

sessions around the run Indiana to the places

Jerry Rairdon:

where all that vary, speak more on that,

Jerry Rairdon:

because she was more instrumental in each of those

Jerry Rairdon:

that I did participate in one of those. I think the coolest quote

Jerry Rairdon:

that came out of the session that I was in was, somebody

Jerry Rairdon:

mentioned that the United Methodist Church is a place to

Jerry Rairdon:

work out who you are. And I just love that quote. Because we're

Jerry Rairdon:

trying to capture a sense of what do we want the Methodist

Jerry Rairdon:

church to be? Once there is some kind of division. And since

Jerry Rairdon:

right now, or church hierarchy seems to still be focused on

Jerry Rairdon:

trying to be the hierarchy for all because the split hasn't

Jerry Rairdon:

happened, something's got to move in and help cast that

Jerry Rairdon:

vision to help share the excitement of what we can be.

Jerry Rairdon:

Because we all know, the diamond Church has some changing to do.

Jerry Rairdon:

And now especially with COVID, they're even more challenges.

Jerry Rairdon:

It's going to take a different kind of church to reach new

Jerry Rairdon:

generations. So we hope with these sessions, it's the

Jerry Rairdon:

beginning of starting that visioning process to just try to

Jerry Rairdon:

imagine what kind of church can we become. I really love that

Jerry Rairdon:

quote. Now that the church is a place to work out who you are,

Brad Miller:

yeah, I love that as well. And working through the

Brad Miller:

chaos through working through the pain and see where we will

Brad Miller:

re emerge. So Mary, you, Jeremy Mitchell, you were part of these

Brad Miller:

listening, or visioning sessions. So what can you add to

Brad Miller:

this?

Mary Dicken:

Yeah, well, first, I would echo Jerry, like that

Mary Dicken:

was such a delightful moment in the conversations. And that was

Mary Dicken:

that I just, I mean, it was so true, but just to have somebody

Mary Dicken:

named out loud to you like, yes, that's who we are, and should

Mary Dicken:

be, you know, these, these visioning sessions that we did.

Mary Dicken:

First of all, I was just delighted by the the folks who

Mary Dicken:

turned out for him, you know, we had a just a wonderful turnout

Mary Dicken:

of both lay and clergy across our conference that were showing

Mary Dicken:

up on zoom in a season when we are all like really zoomed out.

Mary Dicken:

But they showed up and wanted to talk with each other. And what I

Mary Dicken:

heard consistently was just the, the longing that folks have for

Mary Dicken:

a church, that is, that is all the goodness of our connection,

Mary Dicken:

and all the wonderful ways that we have been in mission and

Mary Dicken:

ministry together, over since the founding of our Methodist

Mary Dicken:

Church, right. And, and that they they want they long for,

Mary Dicken:

for that to be what drives us as a church, and not simply all of

Mary Dicken:

our conflict about inclusion and exclusion, as you were saying

Mary Dicken:

before, and at the same time, you know, it was also very clear

Mary Dicken:

to me, it wasn't a sense of like, let's just move past it

Mary Dicken:

and set that aside at all, you know, because because many of

Mary Dicken:

these folks were talking about their own experiences of, you

Mary Dicken:

know, have experience in harmful exclusion in our church

Mary Dicken:

connection. Right. So the, the vision that I kept hearing was,

Mary Dicken:

you know, can we be a church where we are, again, celebrating

Mary Dicken:

whole people for in the beautiful diversity that they

Mary Dicken:

are, and are united in mission and ministry, in our communities

Mary Dicken:

in our state, and around the world. And, you know, I, several

Mary Dicken:

of the sessions, people made reference in different ways, but

Mary Dicken:

it would come up and they would say, you know, we're supposed to

Mary Dicken:

be about good news, but I'm not sure that Well, really good job

Mary Dicken:

of that these days,

Brad Miller:

you can think you're sharing good news. But

Brad Miller:

what people here actually hear maybe something different Quite

Brad Miller:

so.

Unknown:

Right? Yes.

Alberto Hidalgo:

Oh, you know, if I can interrupt your Yes, I

Alberto Hidalgo:

want to do one of the things that I was left with during, I

Alberto Hidalgo:

think I participated in all of the visioning sessions as well.

Alberto Hidalgo:

But one of the things that I was left with is just this desire to

Alberto Hidalgo:

move beyond this quote, unquote, topic of inclusion, so that we

Alberto Hidalgo:

can focus our energies as a church, on the work in the

Alberto Hidalgo:

world, you know, there's so much else that we, as a people can

Alberto Hidalgo:

focus on, there's, you know, income inequality, and there's

Alberto Hidalgo:

opportunity inequalities, there's, you know, seeing the

Alberto Hidalgo:

abundance of God in one another, that we're not able to do right

Alberto Hidalgo:

now, because we're just stuck in this, you know, bickering, if

Alberto Hidalgo:

you will, of, of who we are as church. And, you know, again,

Alberto Hidalgo:

I'm not a lifelong Methodist, but I know that the, the

Alberto Hidalgo:

Methodist Church over its history has had a tremendous

Alberto Hidalgo:

influence, you know, regionally across the nation is and the

Alberto Hidalgo:

globe, just the impact that we all do. And I would love for us

Alberto Hidalgo:

as a church to move into a space and I heard this on the

Alberto Hidalgo:

visioning into a space where we're making, we're making good

Alberto Hidalgo:

happen, sharing that good news, making good health, I

Brad Miller:

love that they're an albertan. to, you know, they

Brad Miller:

actually do have a stated, vicious table as a whole United

Brad Miller:

Methodist Church, I'm making disciples of Jesus Christ, for

Brad Miller:

the transformation of the world. And sometimes it seems hard to

Brad Miller:

do. And when we get stuck our own, you know, in some words, in

Brad Miller:

some ways, a narrow agenda here. But our but I want to go back to

Brad Miller:

you for just a moment here. You are a delegate from Indiana to

Brad Miller:

jurisdictional conference, and therefore you're in some of the

Brad Miller:

conversations regarding General Conference as some of the

Brad Miller:

delegate to conversations that are going on there. What are we

Brad Miller:

going to talk a little bit here about some of the details of how

Brad Miller:

things are getting getting done or not getting done? But what

Brad Miller:

are some things you are hearing from the public or from your

Brad Miller:

fellow delegates? What are some of the things that you're

Brad Miller:

hearing that are really causing you? Maybe, you know, some

Brad Miller:

discomfort, and maybe some things are giving you some

Brad Miller:

encouragement?

Alberto Hidalgo:

Thank you again, for the question. You

Alberto Hidalgo:

know, I, I put my my name forward as willingness to serve.

Alberto Hidalgo:

Because I wanted to be part of the conversation because I

Alberto Hidalgo:

realize and recognize that a lot of a lot of people may not know,

Alberto Hidalgo:

a gay individual, or an LGBTQ plus individual. And if I can,

Alberto Hidalgo:

you know, be part of that face to someone else, then maybe it

Alberto Hidalgo:

makes it less scary, right? So I went into becoming a delegate

Alberto Hidalgo:

thinking that we, as a church could reconcile and stay

Alberto Hidalgo:

together. And unfortunately, Brad, what I what I found is

Alberto Hidalgo:

that there's a whole group within the church that has

Alberto Hidalgo:

already made a decision. And it's, you know, the more

Alberto Hidalgo:

conservative I use, the word faction of our church has

Alberto Hidalgo:

already made a decision that they're going to leave, they've

Alberto Hidalgo:

set up their own branding, they've set up their own name,

Alberto Hidalgo:

that there's a movement that the train has already left the

Alberto Hidalgo:

station. And unfortunately, at some point, what remains needs

Alberto Hidalgo:

to move on. And, again, unfortunately, the fact that we

Alberto Hidalgo:

have not had a general conference does allow for more

Alberto Hidalgo:

dialogue. But if not everyone is coming to the table to have, you

Alberto Hidalgo:

know, an open dialogue. It prolongs some pain. So, you

Alberto Hidalgo:

know, what I'm hearing from from other lay members, whenever

Alberto Hidalgo:

there's a church announcement of, you know, leaving the church

Alberto Hidalgo:

just associated with the church. There's a lot of questions as to

Alberto Hidalgo:

why what's going on? Why are we moving forward? And it's,

Alberto Hidalgo:

there's no easy answer here because of, of COVID. We did

Alberto Hidalgo:

have our bishops, our Bishop recently, Bishop Trimble join us

Alberto Hidalgo:

recently, at one of our delegation meetings, it was

Alberto Hidalgo:

great to have him on the call. There was a lot of discussion

Alberto Hidalgo:

about where we are, why we're in the status that we are. We had a

Alberto Hidalgo:

member of the delegation encouraged us to not make quick

Alberto Hidalgo:

decisions that our tradition is about having conversations and

Alberto Hidalgo:

dialogue. That's why we have in person annual General

Alberto Hidalgo:

conferences. But it does make it somewhat discouraging that we

Alberto Hidalgo:

can't move on with the goodness.

Brad Miller:

Yes. Well, we're having to face reality just in

Brad Miller:

good degrade thinking you have to face the brutal facts and

Brad Miller:

still move move forward in faith in soba. Jerry, want to come

Brad Miller:

back to you is let's get a little deeper into all this kind

Brad Miller:

of stuff here. What's I just kind of interested in your take

Brad Miller:

Jerry, you're intimately involved with folks in this

Brad Miller:

group but others throughout Indiana and other places as

Brad Miller:

well. What in the world is going on? with General Conference? And

Brad Miller:

with decisions making? What are the implications of a delay? I

Brad Miller:

just got I know, none of us have exact answers. What's your take

Brad Miller:

on how things are shaking out in the next two year or so here?

Brad Miller:

And especially the issues we're dealing with here today?

Jerry Rairdon:

Well, we got a major issue when the only true

Jerry Rairdon:

body that speaks for the Methodist Church is the general

Jerry Rairdon:

conference. And you can't pull that conference together. How do

Jerry Rairdon:

you have anybody truly have the authority there. So from what I

Jerry Rairdon:

understand just what I hear, here and there, and I just think

Jerry Rairdon:

it's a lot of speculation, we know it's gonna be very

Jerry Rairdon:

difficult to have an in person General Conference, probably at

Jerry Rairdon:

least till fall 2022. The questions going to be how

Jerry Rairdon:

patient are people willing to be on both sides of this. We have

Jerry Rairdon:

churches who feel their mission is impacted, because they can't

Jerry Rairdon:

name that we're continuing to do harm as a denomination, people

Jerry Rairdon:

that are LGBTQ. And then I know there are people on the other

Jerry Rairdon:

side that they're ready to move on. So there is a certain amount

Jerry Rairdon:

of energy happening on the roof are all side of things, that's

Jerry Rairdon:

encouraging people to take a look at the Christmas covenant

Jerry Rairdon:

that provides a way for there'll be regionalization of the

Jerry Rairdon:

different bodies. So that, for example of Africa, if people

Jerry Rairdon:

want to continue to be part of the United Methodist Church,

Jerry Rairdon:

they could do so that they'd have the freedom to establish

Jerry Rairdon:

their own discipline. And therefore they can make their

Jerry Rairdon:

rules that are in customer with what they are comfortable with.

Jerry Rairdon:

There could be some energy with that. The other thing could

Jerry Rairdon:

happen is I see some energy beings suggest let's find a way

Jerry Rairdon:

to create the clot dread trust laws in a way that congregations

Jerry Rairdon:

could exit to another denomination that's under the

Jerry Rairdon:

auspices of less path. And they could speed that along and then

Jerry Rairdon:

not have to have these conference votes. Conference

Jerry Rairdon:

wide. So I don't know if anybody's got a crystal ball yet

Jerry Rairdon:

what's going to happen. So

Brad Miller:

that's, that's that's part of the issue is that

Brad Miller:

you know, this, the issue is no one has a crystal ball, what's

Brad Miller:

going to happen, and yet it keeps dragging on and on, and

Brad Miller:

many in the huge factory in the COVID crisis, which means we

Brad Miller:

haven't had decision so people are getting antsy and anxious.

Brad Miller:

And the local church pastors and leaders are just wanting some

Brad Miller:

direction. And a lot of it's not happening. And that's where I

Brad Miller:

believe a room for all is at least giving at least one voice

Brad Miller:

hear what some options are. But I would just I just think we're

Brad Miller:

at a time where we're in this really anxious time and, and

Brad Miller:

people would love to have some decisions made one way or

Brad Miller:

another. And it seems to me that there's we're going to lose some

Brad Miller:

from the right and some from the left is to use that type of

Brad Miller:

language. And we're gonna left with a confused middle here. And

Brad Miller:

we'll see how it all shakes out. But it doesn't right now doesn't

Brad Miller:

feel filled.

Jerry Rairdon:

One thing for sure is that roof Ron, Indiana,

Jerry Rairdon:

our steering team is going to begin discussing what does it

Jerry Rairdon:

mean to live into the church that we want to become and not

Jerry Rairdon:

wait until fall of 2022. But to begin doing that now. And so we

Jerry Rairdon:

may invite some congregations were pretty united on where they

Jerry Rairdon:

want to go with this to begin living that out. And then we'll

Jerry Rairdon:

see what the repercussions are.

Brad Miller:

Yeah. And then there's implications in terms of

Brad Miller:

Yes, they have evidence. Yeah, as you mentioned, we don't know

Brad Miller:

how to shake out but an annual conference itself may be able to

Brad Miller:

opt out and local churches, certain clergy and aligning

Brad Miller:

clergy and appointments, all kinds of things are factors

Brad Miller:

here. So Mary Selleck is something you want to share

Brad Miller:

there.

Mary Dicken:

Yeah, I'm really glad Jerry said that, at the end

Mary Dicken:

of that, about this idea of the US living into the church that

Mary Dicken:

we're called to be because, you know, I think so often in this

Mary Dicken:

conversation, we take this really kind of passive posture,

Mary Dicken:

that we are, that somehow we are just, there's nothing we can do.

Mary Dicken:

We're just, you know, subject to whatever the whims of General

Mary Dicken:

Conference are, and we just have to kind of wait for that to get

Mary Dicken:

sorted out at all. And I just I don't think that's what we're

Mary Dicken:

called to do. I think we are called to faithfulness. And, and

Mary Dicken:

that faithfulness means living into the gospel of Jesus Christ,

Mary Dicken:

which is absolutely an inclusive gospel. And, and even just, you

Mary Dicken:

know, the sort of notion that we have what's going to be the next

Mary Dicken:

general conference that, you know, the finally resolves all

Mary Dicken:

of our issues, you know, we're 50 years into this conflict. We

Mary Dicken:

are 50 years into this in the United Methodist Church. And I

Mary Dicken:

pray that we can move forward and that our legislative

Mary Dicken:

processes make room for that I firmly believe that the Holy

Mary Dicken:

Spirit can and does work in many ways, including it through our

Mary Dicken:

legislative processes. And I believe that we are called to,

Mary Dicken:

to reclaim some agency and to, to live into the church that God

Mary Dicken:

is calling us to be in the here and now and not simply take a

Mary Dicken:

passive posture of saying, well, we just, you know, you know,

Mary Dicken:

we're just at the mercy of these delays and, and waiting for

Mary Dicken:

action or inaction and all of that. So that's, that would just

Mary Dicken:

be my one response to the conversation about general

Mary Dicken:

conferences, that it is not the be all end all of what it means

Mary Dicken:

to move forward as the as the United Methodist Church.

Brad Miller:

Well, the reality is, you know, there's a lot of

Brad Miller:

people who really don't really know or care a whole lot what

Brad Miller:

General Conference says, you know, they are impacted by what

Brad Miller:

happens at the local church, by their local church pastor, by

Brad Miller:

their brother and sister child, who were influenced or impacted

Brad Miller:

by decisions based, particularly those around LGBTQ plus issues.

Brad Miller:

I speak for myself for a minute, you know, I have three adult

Brad Miller:

children and one of my children is gay and, and my other two

Brad Miller:

children are supportive of him. And the result is all three of

Brad Miller:

them are not involved with United Methodist Church or any

Brad Miller:

church and a lot of part because they are, don't feel that

Brad Miller:

welcome spirit there. And so that's a personal thing that I

Brad Miller:

have to deal with. But I'm what I'm going to bring this back to

Brad Miller:

all three of you about is, let's get personal here for a minute,

Brad Miller:

we've talked to kind of organizationally about your own

Brad Miller:

story. What about in our churches? What kind of stories

Brad Miller:

are you seeing of our people, or you've been impacted? Good or

Brad Miller:

bad by decisions being made in the church? Or regarding these

Brad Miller:

issues? So, Albert, how about you? Would you like to speak to

Brad Miller:

that with a personal experiences of people you're aware of?

Alberto Hidalgo:

So I mentioned my my partner, Dan and I have

Alberto Hidalgo:

been together for 13 years, we had planned on celebrating a

Alberto Hidalgo:

marriage ceremony in our church. And I'm sure that we have some

Alberto Hidalgo:

very close pastor friends who would have married us who would

Alberto Hidalgo:

have presided at the the marriage ceremony, in our

Alberto Hidalgo:

chapel, for example. However, given the kind of punitive

Alberto Hidalgo:

nature of you know, what was discussed, decided at that

Alberto Hidalgo:

special conference, special annual conference in 2019. We

Alberto Hidalgo:

didn't want to put them at jeopardy. So as a result, we did

Alberto Hidalgo:

not get married. In the church, and we're not married currently.

Alberto Hidalgo:

I know that there are a lot of stories like that. People who

Alberto Hidalgo:

want to, you know, be surrounded by their church community be

Alberto Hidalgo:

celebrated. And they're holding off, or they're saying, you

Alberto Hidalgo:

know, what, maybe it's time to go check out a different church.

Alberto Hidalgo:

I will say that this is, I think, especially true for the

Alberto Hidalgo:

young, you know, the next two generations having 44 kids aged

Alberto Hidalgo:

30 to 22. I would say they're, they're pretty deep, spiritual,

Alberto Hidalgo:

faithful people. They feel a real strong calling to Broadway

Alberto Hidalgo:

because of its inclusivity. But they find that the hypocrisy in

Alberto Hidalgo:

many churches drives them not to be part of a church community.

Alberto Hidalgo:

And I think we're seeing that in a lot of places. So, you know,

Alberto Hidalgo:

let's, let's make sure the church is real and relevant,

Alberto Hidalgo:

especially to our future generations.

Brad Miller:

Yes. Thank you for that. Mirror. I guess I'll pose

Brad Miller:

the I will pose the same question to you personal

Brad Miller:

experiences you've had about decisions made that have

Brad Miller:

impacted people you know, or in your churches or something about

Brad Miller:

that, that are impacted by this?

Mary Dicken:

Yeah. So um, first of all, I would say I have yet

Mary Dicken:

to serve a church where there aren't those personal stories,

Mary Dicken:

right? I think every every congregation I've served,

Mary Dicken:

whether it is in the city or in the country or in the suburbs,

Mary Dicken:

it doesn't matter. Those stories are there. But as Albert was

Mary Dicken:

talking about, particularly young people, this vision was

Mary Dicken:

coming to mind. It was an experience I had several years

Mary Dicken:

ago. I was at the the church, I was that I was charged with

Mary Dicken:

responsibility for a youth choir. And it was, it was a it

Mary Dicken:

was a great joyful thing also, like not my gift, because I'm

Mary Dicken:

not a youth ministry person. But I did love these young people.

Mary Dicken:

And we would go on tour every summer. And we were so I was on

Mary Dicken:

like a charter bus with, you know, it was like 30 or 40

Mary Dicken:

teenagers on this long road trip to on this tour that we're on.

Mary Dicken:

And I'm sitting in the front of the bus. And one of the youth.

Mary Dicken:

She was a high school Jr. She walks up the aisle, everybody's

Mary Dicken:

like conked out on the bus. But she walks up, and she sits next

Mary Dicken:

to me. And she just starts chatting with me. And so we're

Mary Dicken:

just talking and, and, and then pretty soon, it was clear that

Mary Dicken:

she wanted to have a serious conversation. And she started

Mary Dicken:

telling me that she thought she was called to ministry, to

Mary Dicken:

ministry as a clergy person, which really warmed my heart

Mary Dicken:

because this was one of those youth that like, was just so

Mary Dicken:

gifted, and so, like so deep, spiritually, like mature beyond

Mary Dicken:

her age, you know, so many gifts and graces, just like a real

Mary Dicken:

treasure. Not only in the context, I was serving, but to

Mary Dicken:

the church as a whole. And so she's telling me, she's feeling

Mary Dicken:

this call to ministry, and you know, it's just such a joyful

Mary Dicken:

thing. And then she says to me, she says, but will there ever be

Mary Dicken:

people like me serving as clergy in the United Methodist Church?

Mary Dicken:

And she said that because she had come out a few years ago.

Mary Dicken:

And it was a heartbreaking moment. Because suddenly, I was

Mary Dicken:

confronted with this very earnest teenager who is hearing

Mary Dicken:

and responding to a call from God. And then asking me, can she

Mary Dicken:

live out that call in the church that she grew up in, that

Mary Dicken:

nurtured her that made her the person that she is today? And,

Mary Dicken:

and we had a really honest conversation? You know, one of

Mary Dicken:

the things I told her, I said, I said, there have been LGBTQ

Mary Dicken:

persons in the Methodist Church since the very beginning. Like,

Mary Dicken:

let's be clear about that. And there are LGBTQ persons serving

Mary Dicken:

as clergy in the United Methodist Church today. So it is

Mary Dicken:

not a question of Will there be a day when that can happen? It

Mary Dicken:

has happened. But then we also had to have the honest

Mary Dicken:

conversation about what is our Book of Discipline say? And if

Mary Dicken:

she chooses to pursue this in the United Methodist Church, as

Mary Dicken:

it currently stands? What are the obstacles that she might

Mary Dicken:

come across? What is the very real harm that she might

Mary Dicken:

experience? And to me that, you know, it's heartbreaking on so

Mary Dicken:

many levels? You know, first of all, you know, you want in that

Mary Dicken:

moment, just to be able to celebrate a young person

Mary Dicken:

responding to a call from God. And yet, I had to turn into that

Mary Dicken:

conversation. And, you know, and then I just think, kind of the

Mary Dicken:

bigger picture of like, what do we miss out on? If we don't make

Mary Dicken:

room for someone like that,

Brad Miller:

please, for some awkward and uncomfortable

Brad Miller:

conversations that should be more affirming than kind of

Brad Miller:

putting a constraint on the conversation. And that's a

Brad Miller:

little bit painful, though. Jerry, how about you, I just

Brad Miller:

want to ask if you've had personal experiences that are

Brad Miller:

impacted by some of the decisions we're talking about

Brad Miller:

here?

Jerry Rairdon:

Yeah, we had one just before COVID. It's kind of

Jerry Rairdon:

interesting. I never got to meet this person. But we had someone

Jerry Rairdon:

come look at our church, one of the location for their wedding.

Jerry Rairdon:

They removed the community didn't, they weren't members of

Jerry Rairdon:

our church had attended church yet. But our ministry of

Jerry Rairdon:

assistant showed her around at a good conversation, was very

Jerry Rairdon:

impressed with her. And, and then she got all the information

Jerry Rairdon:

and was ready to book. And she later, something about that

Jerry Rairdon:

conversation made her think I just wonder, as she talked, is

Jerry Rairdon:

she talking about a same sex wedding. And so she called her

Jerry Rairdon:

back and said, oh, by the way, we're still working this out

Jerry Rairdon:

with our denomination. And so at this point, if this is a same

Jerry Rairdon:

sex oil, we won't be able to host it. And the young woman was

Jerry Rairdon:

very upset, apparently at that. And so when I got back in the

Jerry Rairdon:

office, of course, I didn't see any of this conversation. My

Jerry Rairdon:

lizard assistant who is really a traditional leaning, person when

Jerry Rairdon:

it comes to the view of marriage was so upset because she

Jerry Rairdon:

realized how much harm this into this young woman who she was so

Jerry Rairdon:

impressed with. So I got her number and tried calling,

Jerry Rairdon:

because I was upset that I didn't get to have a

Jerry Rairdon:

conversation and talk about things and share at least how I

Jerry Rairdon:

feel about this issue. And, and I'm so upset that I even offer

Jerry Rairdon:

for them come talk I I've talked to a judge in our congregation.

Jerry Rairdon:

So I've got arrangements made that if this happens like this,

Jerry Rairdon:

that he could actually perform the actual statement of marriage

Jerry Rairdon:

and sign the license, but I would share in the experience

Jerry Rairdon:

and, and I was so upset I even called offered I would pay for

Jerry Rairdon:

their venue to make it possible for them to have it somewhere

Jerry Rairdon:

else. Yeah. And they never, and they never call back. And well,

Jerry Rairdon:

it pains me to think this person who this may have been their

Jerry Rairdon:

first experience with the Christian church, and never ever

Jerry Rairdon:

come back again.

Brad Miller:

Yes, but thank you all three arch for us for

Brad Miller:

sharing some of those painful stories and because there's a

Brad Miller:

lot of pain out of this, as we you know, deal with this

Brad Miller:

reality. But I, I really like to close our conversation if we can

Brad Miller:

with a with a word of hope, you know, we are Easter people where

Brad Miller:

people the resurrection, right? So we got to think about, you

Brad Miller:

know, life over death and all of this what it means to be a

Brad Miller:

Christian. So I just really want to bring our conversation

Brad Miller:

around, about out of this pain out of this situation out of

Brad Miller:

this chaos. What do you see, as as signs of hope moving forward,

Brad Miller:

Halbert

Alberto Hidalgo:

signs of hope are that people are realizing

Alberto Hidalgo:

that there's a what they call an intersectionality of some of

Alberto Hidalgo:

these issues, that there are people of color. Women, you

Alberto Hidalgo:

know, other groups that have not felt particularly heard or

Alberto Hidalgo:

included in the story of who we are as churches who we are as

Alberto Hidalgo:

United Methodists, and I think there's a lot of awareness. And

Alberto Hidalgo:

I am encouraged by that. It's not a, it's a great thing, it's

Alberto Hidalgo:

a great thing, that awareness is increased, it can be painful,

Alberto Hidalgo:

for many of us who aren't used to it, who, even those who are

Alberto Hidalgo:

used to it, you know, it's painful to say, Oh, I forgot to

Alberto Hidalgo:

include so and so. But I that gives me a lot of hope is that

Alberto Hidalgo:

there's an intersectionality of a lot of a lot of these themes

Alberto Hidalgo:

that's making people think differently.

Brad Miller:

Love that, etc. intersectionality. Especially,

Brad Miller:

it seems to me, from my perspective, least pushed by a

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lot of our younger people who are just not having it. They're

Brad Miller:

just not having it. And I appreciate that. Mary, how about

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you signs of hope, in the midst of all this? We're talking about

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here today?

Mary Dicken:

Yeah, I would echo Albert, there's conversations

Mary Dicken:

happening today in the church that weren't happening even. And

Mary Dicken:

I say church like meaning the broader church that I would say,

Mary Dicken:

in many ways weren't even happening five years ago. And,

Mary Dicken:

and, and it is bigger than simply our denominational

Mary Dicken:

conflict over the inclusion of LGBTQ persons. It's a really a

Mary Dicken:

reckoning with our histories of oppression, but but not simply

Mary Dicken:

stopping there, but actually saying we want to be a different

Mary Dicken:

kind of church. And I see that happening across the connection.

Mary Dicken:

And that is incredibly encouraging to me, just the fact

Mary Dicken:

that, that we're talking openly and honestly about all sorts of

Mary Dicken:

issues of inclusion and diversity in the church. And,

Mary Dicken:

and at the same time, I'm seeing that more and more folks in the

Mary Dicken:

church, who are saying, you know, what we, we want to to be

Mary Dicken:

the we want to be the church that proclaims God's love for

Mary Dicken:

all people and sort of just unapologetically claiming that.

Mary Dicken:

So that's, that's a sign of hope for me as well. As I look around

Mary Dicken:

at what's happening, I think there's a lot of power in, in

Mary Dicken:

simply acknowledging what is actually happening and then

Mary Dicken:

being willing to wrestle with the implications for our kind of

Mary Dicken:

everyday, shared life and ministry as the church and so I

Mary Dicken:

see that,

Brad Miller:

thank you for that. Jerry, did I ask you about your

Brad Miller:

signs of hope, my friend?

Jerry Rairdon:

Well, I would suggest the work that I've

Jerry Rairdon:

experienced in this journey with room for all has been very

Jerry Rairdon:

energizing. It's put me in touch with clergy of all ages come

Jerry Rairdon:

across such gifted LGBTQ people that those gifts need to be

Jerry Rairdon:

shared. It's been very energizing as we've had

Jerry Rairdon:

conversations just like we had those visioning conversations

Jerry Rairdon:

and Just last week I was in conversation with I believe it's

Jerry Rairdon:

Trinity Church in West Lafayette. There is a tremendous

Jerry Rairdon:

amount of energy of those who want an inclusive church. And

Jerry Rairdon:

we're not going to stop until we get there. We're having a

Jerry Rairdon:

gathering of retirees who are inclusive minded, may 19, at St.

Jerry Rairdon:

Luke's from 11 to one. And we'll be zooming that for those in

Jerry Rairdon:

other parts of the state. So there is a great amount of

Jerry Rairdon:

interest, especially as we're coming out of COVID. And looking

Jerry Rairdon:

forward to getting back together again, that we will pick up this

Jerry Rairdon:

fight that we're involved in to try to make our church what we

Jerry Rairdon:

want it to be. And we will not quit until it's done. Yes.

Brad Miller:

Well, a great part of what is a good thing I think,

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is a we're talking about things things are no longer kind of in

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the shadows or in some backroom somewhere we are talking about

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it, we're dealing with it the painful things we're dealing

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with. And we have to we have to because we almost have no

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choice, but we are dealing with things and conversation and

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commentary, which is certainly our purpose here at United

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Methodist people podcast and I know that some of you will want

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to learn more about the room for all coalition and similar groups

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around the around the country and in our show notes. You will

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have the connections to our guests here today as well as the

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website room for all ai n.org and the Facebook page

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facebook.com. Slash room for all AI n. And we'll have connections

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to our guests today. We do have a great big thank you to

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Reverend Mary Dixon from the Indianapolis reading street

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United Methodist Church on the staff there. Mr. Robert Hale

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doggo, who is a lay person from the Indianapolis Broadway United

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Methodist Church and a delegates jurisdictional conference. And

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Reverend Jerry Reardon, one of the founders of the roofer oil

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coalition, who's the senior pastor at First United Methodist

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Church in Noblesville, Indiana, has been I have been a pleasure

Brad Miller:

to be with you today. My name is Reverend Dr. Brad Miller, pastor

Brad Miller:

at Otterbein United Methodist Church in Indianapolis, and the

Brad Miller:

host of the United Methodist people podcast. We want to

Brad Miller:

continue to encourage you to do all the good that you can

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About the Podcast

The United Methodist People Podcast
The United Methodist People Podcast is about the pastors, people, ministries of the United Methodist Church as the church navigates anxious times
The United Methodist People Podcast is all about the pastors, people, ministries, and work of the United Methodist Church. The focus is telling the stories which help the United Methodist Church navigate anxious times and support the mission of Making Disciples of Jesus Christ for the Transformation of The World. The United Methodist Podcast also will address issues and matters which challenge the church and provide a forum for constructive discourse to take place over matters regarding the polity and practice of the United Methodist Church.
The United Methodist Podcast is a place for opinion and conversation among persons who care about the health and vitality of the United Methodist Church and is not in any way officially sanctioned by any part of the United Methodist Church.

About your host

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Dr. Brad Miller

I have 40 years of experience in Christian ministry and hold a Doctoral degree in life transformation strategic planning. I am the developer of "The 40 Day Way to Crush Adversity and Achieve Your Promised Life of Peace, Prosperity, and Purpose."