46. A View on Ministry from Seminary Students in Such a Time as This - A Conversation with Rachel Haines and Mackenzie Phillips
Seminary Students Rachel Haines and Mackenzie Phillips are Rev. Dr. Brad Miller’s guests on Episode 46 of The United Methodist People Podcast.
They spoke to Dr. Brad in-depth about college and seminary life and their perspectives on ministry in a time of the pandemic, social, political, and racial unrest and division in the United Methodist Church.
Rachel Haines is a 2018 graduate of Emory and Henry College in Virginia
and a student at Candler School of Theology in Atlanta, Georgia.
Mackenzie Phillips graduated from Hope College in Michigan in 2020 and is a student at Christian Theological Seminary in Indianapolis. She serves as Associate Pastor of High Street United Methodist Church in Muncie, Indiana.
Both women are from Ft Wayne Indiana and both are members of St Joseph’s UMC. They discussed the importance of their home church in their faith formation through youth groups and church camps.
Going deeper - the conversation led to how the students were experiencing diverse situations and people in their college and seminary experiences and exploring scriptural studies and developing their own personal ministry philosophy and theological perspective.
The students discussed women in ministry and the importance of understanding context and perspective in ministry settings and to really be good listeners.
They talked about the challenges of entering ministry during a time of the covid pandemic and the social, political, racial unrest that has pervaded every aspect of life the last year.
Moreover, they talked about entering the ministry in the United Methodist Church during a time of division in the church. They saw that this opened up opportunities to apply their gifts and graces to make an impact upon the world through their willingness to serve and face the challenges before them.
Indeed, they are choosing to see a lot of hope in the world and in the UMC as serving the church in new ways is now more needed than ever and they are called to look for the good in people and the church and the word.
Episode 46 of The United Methodist People Podcast with Rachel Haines and Mackenzie Phillips is an absolute encouraging word to the church from our emerging leaders who are teaching us to always “do all the good we can.”
mackenzie.phillips@inumc.org
hainesrachel.rh@gmail.com
https://hainesrachel.weebly.com/
The Mission of The United Methodist People Podcast is to strengthen the connection in the United Methodist Church through conversation and commentary and is published by Rev. Dr. Brad Miller an Elder in the Indiana Annual Conference.
Transcript
Reverend Dr. Brad Miller here on the United
Brad Miller:Methodist people podcast. This is the podcast, we really like
Brad Miller:to speak into the life of pastors, people lay folks,
Brad Miller:people who love the United Methodist Church, and believe in
Brad Miller:the mission of making disciples of Jesus Christ, for the
Brad Miller:transformation of the world, and like to do so by conversation
Brad Miller:and commentary, which strengthens the life of the
Brad Miller:church. Today, we are privileged to have a couple of seminary
Brad Miller:students with us who are going to speak into their experience
Brad Miller:and preparation for ministry, their call to ministry, and
Brad Miller:what's going on in the world of seminary, and also what is going
Brad Miller:on in terms of the lives of some of our younger people in terms
Brad Miller:of entering ministry and enter into ministry, the world we live
Brad Miller:in now with some particular challenges in our society and
Brad Miller:our United Methodist Church. Big Pat McKinsey Mackenzie Phillips
Brad Miller:is with us. She has a 2020 graduate of Hope College in
Brad Miller:Michigan, and she's on the staff of high treach High Street
Brad Miller:United Methodist Church in Muncie, Indiana. And she's going
Brad Miller:to be beginning at Christian Theological Seminary in
Brad Miller:Indianapolis in the fall of 21. We're glad that she's with us as
Brad Miller:well as Rachael Haynes who graduated from Emory and Henry
Brad Miller:College in Virginia in 2018, and is a student at Candler School
Brad Miller:of Theology in Atlanta, Georgia, she looks to graduate in 2022,
Brad Miller:and is looking to take an appointment in the church at
Brad Miller:that time. So Mackenzie and Rachel, welcome to the United
Brad Miller:Methodist people podcast. Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for
Brad Miller:having us. Awesome. We're glad that you're with us here today.
Brad Miller:And it's been it's my privilege to just to be targeted people
Brad Miller:who are making some profound decisions. That's what people do
Brad Miller:when they go to seminary and choosing to go into ministry.
Brad Miller:And so and that's I just really love to talk to people when
Brad Miller:they're in transformative and transitional points in life. And
Brad Miller:so I just want to start with you, Mackenzie, Mackenzie, you
Brad Miller:tell I would like to learn a little bit about you
Brad Miller:particularly about your
Brad Miller:liberal at your history in terms of what got you pointed towards
Brad Miller:a life in ministry and then to go to go on to college with an
Brad Miller:eye towards seminary. Something happened in your life, too late
Brad Miller:Legion is direction. So this? Tell us your story a little bit?
Mackenzie Phillips:Yeah, well, my name is Pastor Mackenzie
Mackenzie Phillips:Philips.
Mackenzie Phillips:I'm currently a licensed local pastor in the United Methodist
Mackenzie Phillips:Church of Indiana. kind of how I got here, I grew up in Fort
Mackenzie Phillips:Wayne and I went to St. Joseph, United Methodist Church, Rachel
Mackenzie Phillips:and I actually went to the same church, which is just cool to
Mackenzie Phillips:have his connection again, and awesome. And maybe we can talk
Mackenzie Phillips:about that a little bit to what was happening in that church.
Mackenzie Phillips:I think something that is really great about the experience that
Mackenzie Phillips:I had at St. Joseph and kind of how it got me to this point, if
Mackenzie Phillips:they do a wonderful job at encouraging young people and
Mackenzie Phillips:people who want to pursue potential ministry or just feel
Mackenzie Phillips:some type of calling by Christ, in allowing them to explore that
Mackenzie Phillips:calling. And that was my story. I remember, when I first felt my
Mackenzie Phillips:calling, I was going through a really rough time in my high
Mackenzie Phillips:school years. I had lost some friends and was just really
Mackenzie Phillips:struggling with how do I be a Christian in a non Christian
Mackenzie Phillips:environment. And I would often see repercussions of that, and
Mackenzie Phillips:just people would always hold me to this higher standard. And it
Mackenzie Phillips:was a lot to live up to. And I was actually worshipping at
Mackenzie Phillips:Epworth forest and just this huge sense of God's presence had
Mackenzie Phillips:come over me and I was weeping and I was confused at why I was
Mackenzie Phillips:weeping in all these things. And I actually heard God's voice say
Mackenzie Phillips:to me, like you will lead my people I was probably 15, maybe
Mackenzie Phillips:16 at the time. And that was a really scary thing at that time.
Mackenzie Phillips:I didn't tell anyone for quite a while. And then I went to our
Mackenzie Phillips:pastor at the time, Russ Abel, and just said, Hey, I think I
Mackenzie Phillips:felt this call from God, I don't really know what to do with
Mackenzie Phillips:this. It's scary. It's confusing. And he had said to
Mackenzie Phillips:me, you know, our staff parish has been praying for you for six
Mackenzie Phillips:months because we see these gifts in you and this call in
Mackenzie Phillips:you, and I kind of at that point was like, Okay, this is a legit
Mackenzie Phillips:thing. This is from God. It's not just me being crazy. Um, and
Mackenzie Phillips:so you know, that that calling has looked a little different
Mackenzie Phillips:over the years as I've had new experiences and going to college
Mackenzie Phillips:and Going to Christian College in a different state, in just
Mackenzie Phillips:the environment there, which really just focused on growing
Mackenzie Phillips:in faith and challenging your faith and things like that. But
Mackenzie Phillips:I've always known that pastoral ministry is what I want to do. I
Mackenzie Phillips:filled a year ago, you would have told me I would have been
Mackenzie Phillips:here in Indiana, again, associate pastor of a church, I
Mackenzie Phillips:would have probably said, You're crazy. But we're here now. Um,
Mackenzie Phillips:the Lord works in his time. And I did decide to wait to go to
Mackenzie Phillips:seminary one year. And I think that was a great decision for me
Mackenzie Phillips:and my faith. And I think I had a lot of growing that I needed
Mackenzie Phillips:to do. So that's kind of where I am now and how I kind of got to
Mackenzie Phillips:this place. Being on this podcast today. So
Brad Miller:awesome. Awesome. Thank you for sharing that
Brad Miller:story. If you're going to sit out a year in school this past
Brad Miller:year 2020 pray was a good time is any with craziness that went
Brad Miller:on with that in academic circles and everything else? Rachel, so
Brad Miller:glad to have you with us. You're a student right now at Candler
Brad Miller:Seminary in Atlanta, but let's unpack your story a little bit
Brad Miller:with some of which overlaps with McKinsey, doesn't it? So your
Brad Miller:story plays about you're coming to Christ, and coming into
Brad Miller:ministry, seminary and so on.
Rachel Haines:Yeah, a huge, true blessing to like, see
Rachel Haines:McKenzie, in this space again. Because I think that growing up,
Rachel Haines:I had
Rachel Haines:parents and grandparents who were involved in their own
Rachel Haines:churches, and also at St. Joseph United Methodist Church in Fort
Rachel Haines:Wayne, Indiana, where it was sort of we went to church,
Rachel Haines:because it was routine, but also to be with people more so than
Rachel Haines:the narrative of we go to church, because we you need to
Rachel Haines:be saved, and you need this or XYZ.
Rachel Haines:And so going to church was easy, going to St. Joseph growing up
Rachel Haines:was so easy. There, we had such a in my experience of it, I had
Rachel Haines:such a formative and true youth group experience, and was also
Rachel Haines:able to be understood by folks and the church and be given
Rachel Haines:opportunities to speak, to be heard, to sing to just be told
Rachel Haines:that you're enough, you know, and I think a lot of leaders in
Rachel Haines:various ways in that church gave me some of my best friends, and
Rachel Haines:also equipped me with understanding what my life
Rachel Haines:looked like, outside of youth group growing up. And so I like
Rachel Haines:I had a lot of friends at school, who, you know, also
Rachel Haines:would say, very blessed in that way. But every step of the way
Rachel Haines:of me figuring out what my faith journey was in high school, but
Rachel Haines:even though I had friends who are atheist, too, are you who
Rachel Haines:are Muslim, who, you know, I in high school had such a different
Rachel Haines:experience, but they would even say, your enough your love, this
Rachel Haines:is okay, you know, to have just this continuous affirmation that
Rachel Haines:faith was something that I was just working on continuously
Rachel Haines:through high school. So for me, I'm really blessed that it was
Rachel Haines:easy. And getting to college was the was the first time I
Rachel Haines:realized that getting to faith wasn't easy for everyone. And
Rachel Haines:that because I have been so fortunate to see healthy church
Rachel Haines:spaces that I have this obligation in school to say what
Rachel Haines:what is what does this look like now in college? What does my
Rachel Haines:face look like here, and Emory and Henry College is a United
Rachel Haines:Methodist school, but they didn't have a lot of required
Rachel Haines:Christian opportunities. They had opportunities that were
Rachel Haines:extracurricular, and they had a religion degree. And I was kind
Rachel Haines:of going to school to just carry my faith along with me, but not
Rachel Haines:like, I was going to school to be a high school history
Rachel Haines:educator, and also just do a religion major on the side. And
Rachel Haines:then, about two years in there was this really great degree
Rachel Haines:that was originally called public policy and community
Rachel Haines:service, which they now call civic innovation, but Reverend
Rachel Haines:Miller it really resonates with me on, you know what this
Rachel Haines:podcast means because that major, not only was it nonprofit
Rachel Haines:business, not only was it like how to be a leader, but it was
Rachel Haines:also the importance of storytelling. Like, how do we
Rachel Haines:appreciate one another? How do we actually do sustainable
Rachel Haines:community work? How do we actually show up for one
Rachel Haines:another? And how do we realize all of these pieces are
Rachel Haines:interconnected? And so seeing like, I was like, Oh, this feels
Rachel Haines:this doesn't even feel like this is just exciting. This doesn't
Rachel Haines:feel like work. This feels like who the stuff I've been called
Rachel Haines:to think about alongside my religion major. And still not
Rachel Haines:knowing what I want to do with that, graduating college 2018.
Rachel Haines:And then spending a year in AmeriCorps doing some nonprofit
Rachel Haines:business work, because that felt really aligned with the Civic
Rachel Haines:innovation stuff before sort of seeing like, maybe, maybe my
Rachel Haines:faith journey isn't something that just sits alongside me.
Rachel Haines:Maybe it's something that I'm missing in my work, maybe it's
Rachel Haines:now something that I'm understanding is more
Rachel Haines:foundational than I've given it, given it credit for
Brad Miller:going for that. That's an awesome, thank you for
Brad Miller:sharing about that. Rachel, I'm interested in your take a little
Brad Miller:bit in that. about your experiences you mentioned are
Brad Miller:low, but a bit about St. Joseph church in Fort Wayne was a was a
Brad Miller:personal friend of mine, and I know some of the good work
Brad Miller:that's going on there. But what that it's essentially how this
Brad Miller:evolved with two folks from that same youth group in the same
Brad Miller:church, come forward here. What do you think was some of the
Brad Miller:environment that was happening there that is helpful to nurture
Brad Miller:young people like yourself to step forward? I'm talking to you
Brad Miller:now, Rachel?
Unknown:Yeah, I.
Unknown:So
Rachel Haines:I first want to say that, you know, not
Rachel Haines:everything, like was perfect. When you have like this group of
Rachel Haines:25 kids, we had a for at one point, just a really, I think
Rachel Haines:Mackenzie and I were both on different ends of the cycle of
Rachel Haines:heightened youth group activity. You know, you've got pastors
Rachel Haines:with families, you've got these connections to Christian
Rachel Haines:Schools, and people were bringing their friends. And so I
Rachel Haines:think the endearing part of a lot of youth group activities
Rachel Haines:were that it really felt like, for the most part, I was just
Rachel Haines:hanging out with my friends. And that was like, the biggest
Rachel Haines:reason I went, um, and being able to do things together, and
Rachel Haines:being able to be given space, you know, whether it was on a
Rachel Haines:Wednesday night or on a Sunday night, or if it was, like, the
Rachel Haines:unofficial stuff that happened afterwards, like, you know, you
Rachel Haines:talk in the parking lot, or like you do, you know, the fun, like,
Rachel Haines:Thursday night hang out, or you go to camp together, you know,
Rachel Haines:they're all of these different informal ways for youth to
Rachel Haines:understand each other. And St. Joe really had a good network
Rachel Haines:for that, especially I think, for me, being always I've always
Rachel Haines:been, like a little weird, and like a little different. And so
Rachel Haines:there were also like weird and different, and cool kids and
Rachel Haines:youth.
Brad Miller:And you you were affirmed in that without being
Brad Miller:called out for being weird or something like that. So, and
Rachel Haines:women do it. And yes, you women to it, there were
Rachel Haines:and I think McKenzie could speak on this too. I didn't realize
Rachel Haines:until college how important women in ministry really was at
Rachel Haines:that point. Yeah.
Brad Miller:But just to kind of reflect with pastors or church
Brad Miller:leaders who are listening to this podcast today about how
Brad Miller:just extremely, vitally important the full cycle of the
Brad Miller:church local church experiences to faith development and to the
Brad Miller:developing of people who seek their call, whether it is to
Brad Miller:ministry or to be in a Christian business man or woman or a
Brad Miller:schoolteacher or any thing else. And as you probably have
Brad Miller:appreciated now, not every church in fact, most church
Brad Miller:experiences are not like that. Young people or other people as
Brad Miller:well. And I'm fortunate and blessed even though I'm a much
Brad Miller:different stage in my life to you, my I came into my faith
Brad Miller:through that same way through youth group and through church
Brad Miller:camp and things like that. And still very mindful about my
Brad Miller:experience as a Kim bonito and other places that are important
Brad Miller:to me. But there's got to be transitions you that the local
Brad Miller:church and youth group and high school, you know, it's a bit of
Brad Miller:a you know, a protective bubble in a way, and then we move on to
Brad Miller:college with both of you experience Recently, and then,
Brad Miller:you know, and then then Rachel Yura in seminary as well. And
Brad Miller:also, were involved with some civic activities with a taker
Brad Miller:and volunteerism. Let's ask you, my kids, you When did you kind
Brad Miller:of get a little dose of reality that in your life, either
Brad Miller:through college or through ministry that, that, you know,
Brad Miller:this calling thing, this ministry thing is going to be a
Brad Miller:bit of a challenge to it full time, because when you kind of
Brad Miller:had a bit of a reality check.
Mackenzie Phillips:Yeah. I mean, I think this past year,
Mackenzie Phillips:and entering into a pastoral role in the middle of a
Mackenzie Phillips:pandemic, fresh out of undergraduate, not really
Mackenzie Phillips:knowing what I was doing, or what I was getting myself into.
Mackenzie Phillips:I think it was really just a reality check in a lot of ways
Mackenzie Phillips:of moving away from Fort Wayne and from my parents home. Yes, I
Mackenzie Phillips:had been in Michigan, but really being on my own for the first
Mackenzie Phillips:time. And I feel like I was in a place I was in a program, last
Mackenzie Phillips:school year called the May Scholars Program at hoping we
Mackenzie Phillips:touched on how faith in social justice intertwine not knowing
Mackenzie Phillips:that all of these things were about to unfold and happen.
Mackenzie Phillips:Coming in March of 2020, we had no idea was coming. But I think
Mackenzie Phillips:entering into ministry, in the middle of a pandemic. And High
Mackenzie Phillips:Street situation is a little different as both me and the
Mackenzie Phillips:senior pastor, we're both new to the church in which doesn't
Mackenzie Phillips:happen rarely ever. And it was hard. It was really, really
Mackenzie Phillips:hard. At first. I mean, the congregation that I am, I'm
Mackenzie Phillips:probably the youngest person or one of the youngest people here,
Mackenzie Phillips:and I'm in a leadership position. I'm also a woman,
Mackenzie Phillips:which is not normal to this congregation. They've had a lot
Mackenzie Phillips:of male lead pastors. And that's just how it's been or male
Mackenzie Phillips:associate pastors. And you know, just, it was a bit of in
Mackenzie Phillips:shambles when we got here. And I think I didn't know what
Mackenzie Phillips:ministry was or what being a pastor even was. And then coming
Mackenzie Phillips:in, it was hard. There was many days in many times that I was
Mackenzie Phillips:like, Lord, what are you doing? Like, why am I in this place?
Mackenzie Phillips:And is this really what you called me to do? Because I'm not
Mackenzie Phillips:doing well right now. And I think that was really the first
Mackenzie Phillips:like, oh, ministry is not this thing that it's so complex. And
Mackenzie Phillips:I don't think people understand unless they're going through it,
Mackenzie Phillips:how complex it actually is, and how many layers There are, of
Mackenzie Phillips:not only taking care of other people, but learning to take
Mackenzie Phillips:care of yourself, as well. But yeah, it's been so rewarding,
Mackenzie Phillips:but it's also been so hard, in some ways, especially entering
Mackenzie Phillips:in in the middle of a pandemic and all the civil unrest and
Mackenzie Phillips:things like that. Sure. I think this year has really been just
Mackenzie Phillips:an eye opener to what ministry really is. To me,
Brad Miller:it indeed ministry is hard and you it's hard me
Brad Miller:imagine someone entering into more difficult circumstance,
Brad Miller:they're doing almost anything in the year 2020, you know, to
Brad Miller:start something brand new. But Rachel Su, basically, you know,
Brad Miller:the same question, did you have a kind of a, oh, my goodness, or
Brad Miller:Reality Check moment, when you realize that this is going to be
Brad Miller:some serious stuff here. And I know you're involved in some
Brad Miller:volunteer opportunities, but if you had a moment like this
Rachel Haines:every day, you know, you sort of like, check
Rachel Haines:with yourself is like, okay, we have, we still have work to do.
Rachel Haines:Um, it was really easy for me in college to be in, like,
Rachel Haines:attracted to interfaith work, because I thought, wow, like,
Rachel Haines:there's so much I didn't know, growing up in my white,
Rachel Haines:predominantly middle class world of, you know, there's united
Rachel Haines:Methodism, there's back, you know, like, I only know
Rachel Haines:interdenominational work and so I became really attracted to
Rachel Haines:interfaith work. And then when I realized that, for me, it was
Rachel Haines:more difficult to find compromise or to be in
Rachel Haines:conversation in inter denominational conversation. It
Rachel Haines:was more difficult to do that rather than interfaith work, was
Rachel Haines:like, oh, there's, there's still more work to do. There's, you
Rachel Haines:know, there's always more work to do and
Unknown:Don't think I have
Rachel Haines:one moment in particular. And that might be
Rachel Haines:just due to my bad memory. But also I think like, we're just
Rachel Haines:continuously face it with new and evolving needs and
Rachel Haines:aspirations of what needs to be the next job, what needs to be
Rachel Haines:the next
Unknown:focus?
Brad Miller:What do you what do you think addresses to both of
Brad Miller:you here? Now that you've had, you know, you've had your
Brad Miller:experience in high school and youth group and your church and
Brad Miller:and you've had your experiences with college and some seminary
Brad Miller:and some real life ministry in the local church and and
Brad Miller:interfaith and other volunteer agencies? What are some of the
Brad Miller:good ways that you feel like your college or seminary
Brad Miller:experiences have prepared you for these experiences? What are
Brad Miller:some takeaways you've been able to apply? McKenzie ask you
Brad Miller:first.
Mackenzie Phillips:Yeah, hope was just such a unique place.
Mackenzie Phillips:And it was really the first time in my life where I felt like
Mackenzie Phillips:this is where this is where I belong. And this is where I'm
Mackenzie Phillips:supposed to be in this moment of life. And I think something
Mackenzie Phillips:similar to like what Rachel said about Emory was that hope
Mackenzie Phillips:really, it was a Christian School in it. affiliates with
Mackenzie Phillips:the RCA church, but they didn't force students to participate in
Mackenzie Phillips:religious activities, or other things or chapel wasn't
Mackenzie Phillips:required. But they really gave students the space to explore
Mackenzie Phillips:their faith in whatever aspect they wanted to and really make
Mackenzie Phillips:it their own. And I really think that that is something that I
Mackenzie Phillips:really appreciate about hope is that they allowed me the space
Mackenzie Phillips:to explore my faith, make it my own, be involved in things meet
Mackenzie Phillips:people, that could challenge me in my faith, because I was super
Mackenzie Phillips:challenged in a lot of ways, especially in the May Scholars
Mackenzie Phillips:program that I was in talking on topics of race, and sexuality,
Mackenzie Phillips:and all of these things and how they relate to faith. And I
Mackenzie Phillips:just, that's something that I really appreciate. And I think
Mackenzie Phillips:it's made me more able to give people the space to explore
Mackenzie Phillips:their faith, and not expect them to have it all together or be
Mackenzie Phillips:where I'm at, in their faith, but continue to walk alongside
Mackenzie Phillips:them, like people at hope walked alongside me in exploring the
Mackenzie Phillips:different areas of their faith. I think that's the number one
Mackenzie Phillips:thing that I really got out,
Brad Miller:maybe a little some tools to help process and to
Brad Miller:actually have insight into how to react to people. But I'm
Brad Miller:hearing you saying, Rachel asked you pretty much the same thing.
Brad Miller:What do you what do you what takeaways Have you been able to
Brad Miller:apply in your real life experience that you've been
Brad Miller:dealing with now?
Rachel Haines:I think in undergrad, I was given the
Rachel Haines:opportunity to understand that religious literacy needed to be
Rachel Haines:accessible in order to understand community, like
Rachel Haines:community stories and Community Action work. And like how do we
Rachel Haines:how do we make our faith journeys and faith stories,
Rachel Haines:something that we're proud of, or something that intertwines?
Rachel Haines:That we can understand the reality of how they intertwined
Rachel Haines:and building communities and in seminary, some of the things
Rachel Haines:that I've really been so appreciated that I've learned
Rachel Haines:our context is everything. Context is everything when we
Rachel Haines:meet people where we are when we read the Bible, when we sit with
Rachel Haines:ourselves. Another thing is, it's always beneficial when
Rachel Haines:we're telling stories to ask the question whose voice isn't being
Rachel Haines:heard, and whose voice is telling the story. And the
Rachel Haines:biggest thing so far in seminary that I've really wrestled with
Rachel Haines:on how I do this better is what does it mean to have this
Rachel Haines:ministry of presence to be present with people, especially
Rachel Haines:right now, when we are all so isolated? How are we rethinking
Rachel Haines:presence in this
Unknown:digital necessity
Unknown:type of world?
Brad Miller:Orascom work one more kind of background type
Brad Miller:question. We're going to get into some little deeper issues
Brad Miller:here in just a second but that is basically what as you for
Brad Miller:Rachel, what scriptures are teaching or leadership
Brad Miller:approaches have helped form you?
Rachel Haines:The Book of Ecclesiastes, as was the first
Rachel Haines:time, I felt comforted with change. There, you know, I've,
Rachel Haines:I've learned an awful lot about proof texting and but you know,
Rachel Haines:in like holding, you know, chapters and stories and things
Rachel Haines:like this, in general but I, I sit with this part of me that
Rachel Haines:lives in this pluralist world, and so many people who identify
Rachel Haines:as spiritual but not religious, that, you know, Ecclesiastes use
Rachel Haines:has helped me see this, like maybe this outsider book of the
Rachel Haines:Bible that's written in this way that no other book is written
Rachel Haines:in, and we've got this, we've got this character in the story
Rachel Haines:called The teacher who may or may not be, you know, what kind
Rachel Haines:of influences are sitting here. And yet, it's a part of our
Rachel Haines:camp. And yet, it's still here. And I think he could ask that
Rachel Haines:same question for a lot of the different you know, I think a
Rachel Haines:lot of us who have these favorite books or characters,
Rachel Haines:you know, we ask those same questions. But it's helped me
Rachel Haines:wrestle with that a lot of the things I believed at one point
Rachel Haines:were universal, are so much, but that that's
Brad Miller:good Ecclesiastes, he deals a lot with ultimate
Brad Miller:questions, you know, vanity and so on, and what is what's it all
Brad Miller:about? That kind of stuff?
Unknown:So that's the stuff right? Yeah.
Brad Miller:Well, that's what, that's what we but that's what
Brad Miller:we ended up doing in ministry is to struggle with these hard
Brad Miller:issues ourselves in order to even be helpful at all with
Brad Miller:other people, whatever ministry context that we're in, so I
Brad Miller:can't see how about you any scriptures or teachers or
Brad Miller:approaches to teaching that is a really foundational for you?
Mackenzie Phillips:Yeah. I think for me, the Book of Psalms
Mackenzie Phillips:has really just become one that has really shaped the way that I
Mackenzie Phillips:view the world. Just that inner connection between how do we
Mackenzie Phillips:grieve the things that are hard, the things that hurt us the
Mackenzie Phillips:things that hurt God's heart, and but how do we also see God's
Mackenzie Phillips:goodness and praise the Lord, even when those things are hard.
Mackenzie Phillips:And I think I worked as a hospital chaplain two summers
Mackenzie Phillips:ago. And that's when I really can do just realize the
Mackenzie Phillips:importance of grief and how everyone grieves differently.
Mackenzie Phillips:And so the book of Psalms has really been one that has really
Mackenzie Phillips:just become a special thing in my heart, just because of that
Mackenzie Phillips:inner connection. But also, I think, someone, a pastor came
Mackenzie Phillips:into one of my classes once and said, it's so important for us
Mackenzie Phillips:when we're talking about scripture and talking about
Mackenzie Phillips:bigger issues, which we're going to get into, to recognize the
Mackenzie Phillips:context from which and the situation in the historical time
Mackenzie Phillips:from which that scripture is written, so that we can identify
Mackenzie Phillips:that but also use that with how we respond in modern day life
Mackenzie Phillips:that was so hearing, I was like, Oh, my gosh, this makes so much
Mackenzie Phillips:sense. And why did I never do this before? And I think that,
Mackenzie Phillips:that has really changed how I read the Bible, how I preach to
Mackenzie Phillips:my congregation, and just expressing to them the
Mackenzie Phillips:importance of doing that, but also the importance of
Mackenzie Phillips:consulting the word, things, and not what we think the word says.
Mackenzie Phillips:But what is actually in the word, and what is the truth
Mackenzie Phillips:that's
Brad Miller:so awesome to share that I asked you those things,
Brad Miller:because I just realized, kind of the foundations, which helped
Brad Miller:form us as we apply it to ministry moving forward, because
Brad Miller:the next area I want to go with is going to be a little little
Brad Miller:bit deeper and a little bit more pertinent to our world right
Brad Miller:now. Some decision, you're kind of your foundational thinking
Brad Miller:about all these things. And I was talking to a colleague of
Brad Miller:mine who retired a year or two ago and, and I said, you know,
Brad Miller:I'm really talking to some seminary students here and about
Brad Miller:entering ministry and so and what should I ask them? And they
Brad Miller:just said, ask them why, why are you going to do this? And if
Brad Miller:someone asked you that question that indicated stuff. We're
Brad Miller:recording this in April of 20 2021, after a year, more than
Brad Miller:a year now have some real, total upheaval in society and our
Brad Miller:United Methodist Church. We've had the COVID crisis, which is
Brad Miller:impacted. So many people, we've had incredible racial tensions.
Brad Miller:We've had, you know, we, with police shootings, and all kinds
Brad Miller:of terrible things that have happened. The mass killings, the
Brad Miller:community I live in Indianapolis has had a mass killing this
Brad Miller:week. We've had, you know, terrible situations with
Brad Miller:political just craziness going on the last year or so. And, and
Brad Miller:the economy being messed up and no health issues all kinds of
Brad Miller:it's been a tough world to live on what's going on United
Brad Miller:Methodist Church. But my question has to do with why are
Brad Miller:you doing this now? In such a such a time as this, Rachel,
Brad Miller:why, why are you doing this?
Unknown:That's a good question.
Rachel Haines:I think, on my worst mental health days, I when
Rachel Haines:I asked myself that question, I had to say, you know, well, why
Rachel Haines:not? You know what, why not. But I also, on my better days, have
Rachel Haines:to remember. And I'm lucky to remember what I've been given.
Rachel Haines:And even just reflecting on the beginning of like, my faith
Rachel Haines:journey, and how many indirect and informal points of our
Rachel Haines:lives, we were like, We even touch religious education or
Rachel Haines:were formed by our faith. People who have never stepped foot in a
Rachel Haines:church, people who will never say the words United Methodists
Rachel Haines:are still being formed in their faith on a daily basis. And I, I
Rachel Haines:know that I have the capacity to listen, and to work to be a
Rachel Haines:better listener. helper. Not so much teacher anymore. I don't
Rachel Haines:think but or preacher even. But I, from everything, you've just
Rachel Haines:said, there is too much pain, there's too much work, there's
Rachel Haines:still too much in justice, that to check in with those
Rachel Haines:experiencing it and those understanding it is something I
Rachel Haines:can do. And when I talk to God about it, I'm reminded that it's
Rachel Haines:something I need to do.
Brad Miller:Awesome. begins you Why, why, why, why, why are you
Brad Miller:doing this?
Mackenzie Phillips:I think, especially just over the last
Mackenzie Phillips:year, and this has been coming in more true to me and evident
Mackenzie Phillips:is that I just want people to know that they have a place
Mackenzie Phillips:where they can be seen known and loved, for whoever they are in
Mackenzie Phillips:that I want to be a person that makes them feel that way, but
Mackenzie Phillips:also that they that God sees them in that way. And I think
Mackenzie Phillips:this time more than ever, people just want to feel that they have
Mackenzie Phillips:a place that they are wanted and that they belong, and that cares
Mackenzie Phillips:about them. And I think that I have always been a person that
Mackenzie Phillips:is compassionate for many types of different people. But also
Mackenzie Phillips:just I just feel like that's in this time is the space that I am
Mackenzie Phillips:called to create, in the way that I present the word to
Mackenzie Phillips:people. And also just reminding people that despite all of the
Mackenzie Phillips:crap that's going on in the world, and all the issues and
Mackenzie Phillips:things like that, that God is so good, and that he is still
Mackenzie Phillips:working, even when it's hard to see. And if I can, I mean I I
Mackenzie Phillips:would say that I really have been affirmed that I'm a strong
Mackenzie Phillips:writer and a strong speaker in that I really do try to preach
Mackenzie Phillips:and teach what is in the word and even if that means sometimes
Mackenzie Phillips:that challenges people. But I think that that is I know that I
Mackenzie Phillips:have those abilities and kind of like Rachel like why not use
Mackenzie Phillips:them if I have and that I you This calling like, why not do
Mackenzie Phillips:that? I can't let a global pandemic be an excuse to stop a
Mackenzie Phillips:call because a call doesn't ever stop. It continues to go even in
Mackenzie Phillips:the changing of seasons and things that are going on. So
Brad Miller:well, that's awesome to have that attitude.
Brad Miller:Because there are, both of you have mentioned, there's some
Brad Miller:hard moments. And there's reality checks we've also talked
Brad Miller:about here. And the call has to something has to sustain you and
Brad Miller:keep you going when you run into these hard times. And one of the
Brad Miller:things that I'm aware of in the world and in our United
Brad Miller:Methodist Church is that there is, you know, a lot of distress,
Brad Miller:there's a lot of acrimony, there's a lot of anxiety.
Brad Miller:There's a lot of people who just have differing views, who feel
Brad Miller:that they're not heard, for instance. And so we are
Brad Miller:sometimes lacking and finding ways of finding some
Brad Miller:commonality. And so Rachel, just want to kind of direct us
Brad Miller:towards you. How do you find yourself? When you find yourself
Brad Miller:encountering people or situations or political views or
Brad Miller:ministry views or views? For instance, you mentioned about
Brad Miller:women in ministry and things like this. How do you deal with
Brad Miller:that, Rachel, when your encounter with someone who is
Brad Miller:just really far off from where you're at? And how do you? How
Brad Miller:do you relate to them? And how do you do ministry in those
Brad Miller:situations?
Unknown:Yeah.
Rachel Haines:How do we, um, every, every interaction is
Rachel Haines:different, I think for sure. And something that I've really
Rachel Haines:taken, taken away from, from my work in undergrad. And likewise,
Rachel Haines:my work and learning about how we teach religious education,
Rachel Haines:and like just pedagogical methods of like, just doing
Rachel Haines:teaching anything at all, one of like, the best ways for moving
Rachel Haines:to this like hierarchical kind of teaching of like, here's the
Rachel Haines:information, retain it, repeat it habit that we know, like,
Rachel Haines:that isn't always successful, and it's not really successful
Rachel Haines:when we're trying to understand one another. And one of the
Rachel Haines:easiest ways we can start to rethink a different kind of
Rachel Haines:structure, when it comes to teaching is to first check in
Rachel Haines:with each other, you know, it's really, I like to always start a
Rachel Haines:conversation, especially if I don't want to admit to myself
Rachel Haines:that I have an agenda, but I do have an agenda. To quiet that
Rachel Haines:part of my mind. And like, remember, the present moment
Rachel Haines:that I'm in, remember that the person I'm talking to is a child
Rachel Haines:of God, to give them time to ask them how they are to hear them,
Rachel Haines:more so than talk to them or with them. And it's to be
Rachel Haines:committed to the long term sustainability of the agenda
Rachel Haines:rather than the heightened. The heightened response I may want
Rachel Haines:to give or the more immediate reaction that I am experiencing
Rachel Haines:is, is a battle and something that I you know, am blessed to
Rachel Haines:have the time and the space right now to sort of learn and
Rachel Haines:hone in on with myself so that I can become a better chaplain, a
Rachel Haines:better friend, a better daughter, you know, I, to
Rachel Haines:regulate my own emotions is to work on behalf of others even
Rachel Haines:better.
Brad Miller:Mackenzie, I just kind of address you. I know you
Brad Miller:mentioned already in your local church setting how you're one of
Brad Miller:the youngest people, for instance, saying we are one of
Brad Miller:the few women clergy they've maybe ever have ever had there.
Brad Miller:And just I know, that's, for me very much of a downtown
Brad Miller:institutional church and so on. So my I'm assuming that and, and
Brad Miller:so the question basically is for you, how do you deal with
Brad Miller:differences then how do you, you know, whether it's political or
Brad Miller:women in ministry, any number of things or theological stuff? How
Brad Miller:do you deal with that? As you face that?
Mackenzie Phillips:Yeah, I mean, in terms of the women in
Mackenzie Phillips:ministry one that's a really hard one for me because it's
Mackenzie Phillips:like the one you know, we all have that one thing that we're
Mackenzie Phillips:like, I would die on the hill for this for any woman to be
Mackenzie Phillips:like, for me, that's the one that's like I so sometimes it is
Mackenzie Phillips:really hard for me to and I really had to learn like to not
Mackenzie Phillips:like Rachel said, Give that heightened response. Especially
Mackenzie Phillips:in terms of that topic, because that is one that I'm like,
Mackenzie Phillips:there's no question like that women should be able to be
Mackenzie Phillips:ministers. And like, Who who are you to say that I can't preach
Mackenzie Phillips:the word because of my biological self or things like
Mackenzie Phillips:that. But I mean, I definitely, I mean, I have faced numerous
Mackenzie Phillips:times here, like, there is a lot of differing opinions of things,
Mackenzie Phillips:and especially in terms of I am younger, and so some of my views
Mackenzie Phillips:about things are probably different than a lot of people
Mackenzie Phillips:here. But I think something that I've had to really learn is that
Mackenzie Phillips:I, sometimes I have to give myself space to back to back
Mackenzie Phillips:off, and to really just make clear to them, okay, I need, I
Mackenzie Phillips:need some time to really think about this, to think about what
Mackenzie Phillips:you said, to know that I was really listening to you. And
Mackenzie Phillips:then giving them that response or things that they were hoping
Mackenzie Phillips:for, which I know is like not cool in today's culture, because
Mackenzie Phillips:it's very much what I gotta respond right away, I gotta
Mackenzie Phillips:respond right away, you know, like that back and forth. But I
Mackenzie Phillips:think that that has really been the way that I have really
Mackenzie Phillips:learned to you one know, within myself, okay, what are the
Mackenzie Phillips:things and biases that I have? How are those hindering these
Mackenzie Phillips:conversations that I'm having? Kind of shutting those things
Mackenzie Phillips:off? or trying to shut those things off? And then be like,
Mackenzie Phillips:Okay, what did I hear from what this person is saying? What can
Mackenzie Phillips:I take from this conversation? And how can I respond in a way
Mackenzie Phillips:that is graceful and compassionate, while still not
Mackenzie Phillips:agreeing 100% with what they said, but see where they came
Mackenzie Phillips:from. And I think allowing myself to step back and take
Mackenzie Phillips:that space, and then communicate to them, I need to take this
Mackenzie Phillips:space to do this. Even though sometimes you get a negative
Mackenzie Phillips:response to that. I think that has been something that has been
Mackenzie Phillips:really helpful for me, in responding to things,
Brad Miller:Rachel and Mackenzie, I think one of the
Brad Miller:real temptations will be come out of a academic sort of
Brad Miller:environment, and college, seminary, and even in youth
Brad Miller:group, and so on. And especially if we've had overall kind of
Brad Miller:more or less positive experience, is when we're
Brad Miller:encountered with a negative or some sort of pushback, we kind
Brad Miller:of have to take a breath ourselves and kind of say, Okay,
Brad Miller:how do I need to respond to this, and what the temptation is
Brad Miller:there, and I'll speak for myself, because, you know, I
Brad Miller:went and got advanced degrees and all that kind of stuff and,
Brad Miller:and had good experiences is the temptation is kind of thinking,
Brad Miller:Okay, well, I've got some answers here. Because I've got
Brad Miller:educated and so on, so forth. And, and when those are
Brad Miller:rejected, it's kind of like, okay, that, that didn't go like
Brad Miller:I thought. So I think the talent comes into play here and wait,
Brad Miller:both you both, you're exhibiting here, and some really amazing
Brad Miller:ways is to take a breath and listen, take a breath and
Brad Miller:listen, and to seek to really be that on anxious voice in anxious
Brad Miller:times, which is hard to do sometimes, especially if you if
Brad Miller:your buttons get pushed, like mine do some time. And so I just
Brad Miller:want to encourage you that I'm hearing some good stuff here
Brad Miller:from you about how to handle conflict, how to be engaged in
Brad Miller:ministry without being without being a jerk, you know, which is
Brad Miller:kind of way, oftentimes the church comes across as being
Brad Miller:kind of, you know, obnoxious and dogmatic and so on, in such a
Brad Miller:way that it's not helpful. And I wish and my hope for you, moving
Brad Miller:on to the even more helpful, and everything because we live in a
Brad Miller:time right now. And both of you're very aware that
Brad Miller:everything we were about as United Methodist is on the table
Brad Miller:is being challenged, and it's on the line. And the reality is, is
Brad Miller:that well, I was like I was talking to a pastor friend of
Brad Miller:mine not too long ago of another denomination and conversation.
Brad Miller:You know, I'm a United Methodist. And he said, Oh, I
Brad Miller:mean, you're the Untied Methodist. So. So the point I
Brad Miller:want to get here with you is that how do you you know, the
Brad Miller:reality isn't United Methodist Church, that we are almost
Brad Miller:certainly heading towards a division of some sort in the
Brad Miller:next year or so or more. How does that impact your approach
Brad Miller:to ministry or your approach to entering into this world or does
Brad Miller:it at all? And I just because I just think this is the reality
Brad Miller:that almost every United Methodist has to deal with how
Brad Miller:we're going to cheat dog. We're going to have to choose sides.
Brad Miller:Are we going to have to somehow straddle the middle or we're
Brad Miller:going to have to somehow be one thing to one group of people
Brad Miller:within another group of people? How are we going to handle this?
Brad Miller:And how are we going to be true to ourselves to true to our
Brad Miller:calling in the midst of this, that's something every clergy is
Brad Miller:dealing with right now, every lay person in one form or
Brad Miller:another is dealing with. But I'm really interested in the take of
Brad Miller:seminary students as they have to deal with this. Not only your
Brad Miller:academic environment, but in the church environmental, how do you
Brad Miller:deal with this dilemma here? So I'll ask you first, Rachel,
Unknown:I think
Rachel Haines:something that you know, and maybe we're tired
Rachel Haines:of, you know, something that the pandemic has taught us or
Rachel Haines:something that this has brought up, you know, starting phrases
Rachel Haines:like that. But something that this pandemic, I think has shown
Rachel Haines:us is, what are we going to do? If we don't have the control? We
Rachel Haines:thought we did? What are we going to do? Was it the control
Rachel Haines:of a situation that brought us joy? Or is it? Is it finding
Rachel Haines:contentment in what the situation is, isn't saying, I'm
Rachel Haines:committed to moving forward here? I think that this time
Rachel Haines:that we're in is showing us, like you said, a lot more
Rachel Haines:questions than there are answers. And I think that our,
Rachel Haines:our structure, our response time, our mission, and our
Rachel Haines:identity, are things that require those questions require
Rachel Haines:this thought. But along the way, we also have to see who we're
Rachel Haines:hurting in that process of waiting to figure out the
Rachel Haines:answers.
Brad Miller:Well, Mackenzie, you know, you, you're now
Brad Miller:serving in a church? What's your thoughts about how we, I'm sure
Brad Miller:some of these conversations are going on in your local church,
Brad Miller:for instance? Well, how do we deal with it? How do we deal
Brad Miller:with what's going on in the world of our United Methodist
Brad Miller:right now?
Mackenzie Phillips:Yeah. I think that, in my own personal
Mackenzie Phillips:life, like this whole process has of what are what is the
Mackenzie Phillips:United Methodist going to church going to choose? Like? What is
Mackenzie Phillips:going to happen? I think it really has been a grieving
Mackenzie Phillips:process, because I've like I've grown up United Methodist, and
Mackenzie Phillips:just to see that the tradition that I hold dear to my heart, is
Mackenzie Phillips:not going to be what it once was. And that's, and that's
Mackenzie Phillips:evident, and, and really having to greet within myself like
Mackenzie Phillips:that. It's not going to be how it was. But also, I think, yeah,
Mackenzie Phillips:kind of like, what the pandemic has taught me, it really has is
Mackenzie Phillips:that sometimes the things in the structures need to change or
Mackenzie Phillips:changes happening, because there's a greater plan for God
Mackenzie Phillips:in that God has for the United Methodist Church, in place,
Mackenzie Phillips:whatever that may be. And I mean, that in that's
Brad Miller:out of chaos creation, perhaps.
Mackenzie Phillips:Yeah. And I think it's, it's really hard in
Mackenzie Phillips:the place of being a clergy because yeah, like you, like you
Mackenzie Phillips:had mentioned, like, Where am I gonna end up? Like, am I going
Mackenzie Phillips:to be in this area? Or this area? And what's that going to
Mackenzie Phillips:look like? That's really scary. Because it's like, I just want
Mackenzie Phillips:to do ministry, I just want to break, like, glorify God in what
Mackenzie Phillips:I do. But what if that means that, you know, the United
Mackenzie Phillips:Methodist Church, as I known, it is not the place for me. And
Mackenzie Phillips:this is where I thought it was for me. I know, that's a
Mackenzie Phillips:question that a lot of clergy are probably having right now.
Mackenzie Phillips:Because I've had that same question. Um, but yeah, I don't
Mackenzie Phillips:think that the change the condition that I'm serving in,
Mackenzie Phillips:they don't enjoy change at all. But I think something that
Mackenzie Phillips:they've really grown in in that I'm glad to see is that they
Mackenzie Phillips:realize that things can change and not always be the same as
Mackenzie Phillips:they were and God can still be glorified and that things can be
Mackenzie Phillips:good or even better than what they were before. And I think
Mackenzie Phillips:that with this whole everything that's going to happen. I really
Mackenzie Phillips:want that to be my mindset going in is that, okay? Whatever
Mackenzie Phillips:happens, maybe something better is coming out of it. But it is,
Mackenzie Phillips:it's a grieving process. It really is a grieving process.
Mackenzie Phillips:With all this, and there's a lot to take in.
Brad Miller:Well, let's hope so I'll be praying for that,
Brad Miller:because it has reminds me of dramatic and traumatic
Brad Miller:experiences people have such as going through a major surgery or
Brad Miller:cancer or something or also divorces that happened and
Brad Miller:people can or, you know, Major, like losing a business, any
Brad Miller:number of things. You can get through these things, but it's
Brad Miller:painful, it's hurtful, and you can emerge healthier, I'm
Brad Miller:different, but you will be different. And, and so and there
Brad Miller:are some, some creation and some hope in that. And so there's
Brad Miller:really got it just kind of this one more thought for you, Rachel
Brad Miller:and Mackenzie to to reflect on here. Just one more thing. Hope.
Brad Miller:You know, we've talked a little bit about some challenges. We've
Brad Miller:talked about some, some realities, some good experiences
Brad Miller:you had growing up, and in your college experiences and seminary
Brad Miller:experiences, we also talked about so challenges here, to our
Brad Miller:personal faith and to our, our world at your church. But right
Brad Miller:what are some signs of hope you see, either in your life or for
Brad Miller:the life of mission and ministry moving forward sides of hope.
Rachel Haines:Yeah, and bringing it back to like the
Rachel Haines:seminary context, something that gives me hope, is the amount of,
Rachel Haines:or just the amount of students and incredibly wonderful people
Rachel Haines:who are called to go get an M div, or go get an MTS or, you
Rachel Haines:know, or see Seminary in a new way that aren't planning on
Rachel Haines:getting ordained that are going and doing new and exciting
Rachel Haines:things and finding the right words to back that up. I think
Rachel Haines:even in my own conversations with people, sometimes I say I'm
Rachel Haines:going to graduate school to study religion. And sometimes I
Rachel Haines:say, I'm going to seminary to be a chaplain depending on who I'm
Rachel Haines:talking to. Because I think that where we are now requires us to
Rachel Haines:wear a lot of new hats in order to do the work of ministry, and
Rachel Haines:to talk about it to articulate that, and it's an that is
Rachel Haines:happening. So wonderful, and cool. People in conversations
Rachel Haines:that I've had to have in just the last year and a half have
Rachel Haines:been. I've been so grateful for. And I, without a doubt the hope
Rachel Haines:is there in this particular field, but in an individual and
Rachel Haines:generational way. We have to remind ourselves to to actively
Rachel Haines:look for hope and to actively look for these good things. And
Rachel Haines:to, to have that and to be surrounded by people who are
Rachel Haines:committed to that. Yeah.
Brad Miller:I love that phraseology use there, Rachel
Brad Miller:actively look for hope. So I can't wait for this to come to
Brad Miller:you. We can't let things just habitus, we have to be proactive
Brad Miller:and be be engaged. And so because he asked you signs of
Brad Miller:hope, what do you see signs of hope either in your life, your
Brad Miller:church, your experiences, ministry, moving forward signs
Brad Miller:of hope?
Mackenzie Phillips:Yeah, I think one of the coolest things
Mackenzie Phillips:I've seen in the midst of a pandemic is just the creative
Mackenzie Phillips:ways that we have learned to minister to other people,
Mackenzie Phillips:whether that be online through doing virtual services, or just
Mackenzie Phillips:really having to change the way that we connect with people. And
Mackenzie Phillips:I think that is something that I think a lot of people, a lot of
Mackenzie Phillips:churches, a lot of church leaders and just other leaders
Mackenzie Phillips:have realized, this is important. And like, we need to
Mackenzie Phillips:continue to do this. And I, I just remember at the beginning
Mackenzie Phillips:of the pandemic, just seeing the way that people, especially
Mackenzie Phillips:people of faith, were interacting with one another and
Mackenzie Phillips:be like, I'm here for you. I'm praying for you like they are
Mackenzie Phillips:the things that gives me hope that, okay, there's in amongst
Mackenzie Phillips:all this, like, people want to connect with others in a new,
Mackenzie Phillips:inviting way. And it is also giving more people if they
Mackenzie Phillips:choose to have access to services in ways that they maybe
Mackenzie Phillips:wouldn't before. Or devotionals or other other things that can
Mackenzie Phillips:bring them closer to Christ on their own terms. I think that's
Mackenzie Phillips:something that has just been so cool to see and that I'm so
Mackenzie Phillips:hopeful for But yeah, I think also just people asking
Mackenzie Phillips:questions. This is really weird of the church and ministers and
Mackenzie Phillips:about God in all of this in the midst of all that's going on
Mackenzie Phillips:with a pandemic, and social unrest, and just asking people,
Mackenzie Phillips:Christians and the church like, what are you gonna do about it?
Mackenzie Phillips:Like, what is your response to it? Like, I think really calling
Mackenzie Phillips:us into proactive action, like, you can't sit idle anymore, like
Mackenzie Phillips:what is going to happen? I think that having those questions be
Mackenzie Phillips:asked in such a breath of fresh air and gives me so much hope
Mackenzie Phillips:that people are asking the question, but that we as
Mackenzie Phillips:religious leaders, and people who just care that are in the
Mackenzie Phillips:faith, like even just people who are in the faith, are willing to
Mackenzie Phillips:work, most people willing to explore those questions, and
Mackenzie Phillips:then do something about that. I think that is something I'm
Mackenzie Phillips:really has brought me a lot of hope, and I'm hopeful will
Mackenzie Phillips:continue. Even when things start to ramp down a little, whenever
Mackenzie Phillips:that would be
Brad Miller:awesome, great things to share there from both,
Brad Miller:both of you there. And my, my reflection with you, my my word
Brad Miller:of hope comes into play when I have conversations with people
Brad Miller:like McKenzie, Philips and Rachael Haynes, because it gets,
Brad Miller:you know, I've been to temptation for somebody to use
Brad Miller:in ministry for 40 something years like me. And so my
Brad Miller:contemporaries is that, you know, you, there's always a
Brad Miller:temptation to be a little jaded or cynical, and that about, you
Brad Miller:know, but things really don't change all that much. After
Brad Miller:working hard, and so on. Sometimes they say they do
Brad Miller:sometimes you say that they don't and, but what gives me a
Brad Miller:great deal of hope, because I've sometimes I've wondered what's
Brad Miller:going on in the colleges, seminaries end up calling to
Brad Miller:ministry. And here I see, you know, people who are definitely
Brad Miller:called, definitely called, and you're also sharing the stories
Brad Miller:about other people who are in the ranks, who have not been,
Brad Miller:you know, dissolve it to despair or dismay about what's going on
Brad Miller:in the world, or in our church, or you know, the whole
Brad Miller:circumstances of society going on. You know, you deal with
Brad Miller:reality, you got to deal with reality, you got to deal with
Brad Miller:the brutal facts and still move, move forward in faith. It's kind
Brad Miller:of good to great thinking, which I ascribe to that here you are
Brad Miller:saying that you're hearing it, you're in it to win it, you're
Brad Miller:in to be a part of the long haul and to be the child of God who
Brad Miller:offers good things to others. So I just want to say thank you, to
Brad Miller:Rachel, to Rachel and Mackenzie, forgive me a little bit of hope,
Brad Miller:a little pop up for me today. And I think it's going to be a
Brad Miller:word of encouragement to our listeners on the United
Brad Miller:Methodist people podcast. So again, my thanks to Mackenzie
Brad Miller:Phillips, who is the pastor on the staff at high street United
Brad Miller:Methodist Church in Muncie, Indiana and student at Christian
Brad Miller:Theological Seminary in Indianapolis. And to Rachael
Brad Miller:Haynes, who is a student at Canvas School of Theology in
Brad Miller:Atlanta, Georgia. And both these, these young women are
Brad Miller:going to be a force to be reckoned with in the church
Brad Miller:moving forward because they are passionate about Jesus Christ,
Brad Miller:and about making impact for the world through the church. And
Brad Miller:they're, I don't know what we're going to see but it's going to
Brad Miller:be books, it's going to be ministries, it's going to be an
Brad Miller:impact of some form or another that's going to be awesome. And
Brad Miller:God is doing a good thing. So Rachel, and because he thank you
Brad Miller:for being our guest today on on the United Methodist people
